Australian Birth Stories I Sophie Walker
Conversation with Sophie Walker
Sophie Walker is the founder and host of the podcast, Australian Birth Stories. The series shares Mother’s stories of childbirth. She began the podcast hoping to shed some light on the mystery of birth and take away some of the anxiety, doubts and fears around the unknown by sharing women’s first hand accounts. Today her podcast is THE go-to library for pregnant women, partners and birth enthusiasts around Australia with over 1.6 million downloads.
“I had a fabulous second birth. I felt like that was supported by all the stories I had listened to… I really wanted to share that and get more stories out”
Sophie Walker is the founder and host of the podcast, Australian Birth Stories. She lives in Melbourne with her husband and three young boys.
After experiencing a long first labor herself with many elements she’d tried to avoid - induction, epidural, episiotomy, forceps and postpartum haemorrhage. Sophie immersed herself in all sorts of TV shows, books and audio to better equip herself for round two. It worked! She experienced a wonderful second birth and has since gone on to have a positive third birth as well. She attributes this to a good understanding of labour and hearing a collection of other women's experiences.
Sophie feels it’s really important to share all sorts of stories, regardless of how positive or sadly, how heartbreaking they may be. The result is a library of birth stories women can call on throughout their pregnancy. It’s especially handy when women are told of new symptoms, hurdles or when discovering postpartum challenges. The website includes searchable podcast categories and a directory to help women in all areas of Australia gain the best birth and postpartum care possible.
She hopes that after a few listens to her podcast women are better prepared, left feeling more confident and better equipped for complications or anything that deviates from their expectations of birth.
Ok, let’s dive in.
Mentioned in conversation...
Why women love to listen to other birth stories and how Australian Birth Stories is facilitating this.
Sophie’s personal story and how the podcast began
How the series has evolved to offer more to mothers today
The changing perception on motherhood and postpartum health
What Sophie has achieved and where to next
Follow Australian Birth Stories here:
Australian Birth Stories Website
Australian Birth Stories Podcast
Australian Birth Stories Instagram
Australian Birth Stories Facebook
Full Transcript: Sophie Walker, Australian Birth Stories
Pru Chapman: Hello, friends. And welcome back to the One Wild Ride podcast. I'm your host Pru Chapman and I've got a very special interview for you today. With a whopping 1.6 million downloads on her podcast, it is the go to library for pregnant women, partners, and birth enthusiasts. But don't let this fool you. She remains one of the kindest and most humble women getting around. Of course, I'm talking about none other than the host of Australian Birth Stories, Sophie Walker.
Pru Chapman: Now, Sophie began the podcast following the birth of her first son, which didn't exactly go according to plan and from there she took a deep dive into learning more about different birth experiences and then started sharing the birth stories of other women with the hope to shed some light on the mystery of birth and take away some of the anxiety, doubts, and fears around the unknown.
Pru Chapman: Now, a quick heads up, that normally I record each of our interviews face to face, but I was dying to interview Sophie and the incredible impact that she's making, so we recorded this one online and it turned out to be a cracker.
Pru Chapman: Now, through her journey of Australian Birth Stories, Sophie has become especially passionate about post partum health and supporting women into motherhood. So much so, that following the raging success of her first program PostPartum: Life After Birth, she has just launched a follow up series called Discovering Motherhood where she interviews experts to share the specific ways both mothers and their children can thrive in the all important first year of life.
Pru Chapman: Now, it is a real treat to let you know that we're going to be doing a double whammy giveaway of both of these programs, which cover everything from postnatal depletion and nourishment, right through to breastfeeding and sex after birth. So, be sure to be following along over on Instagram @pruchapman where I'll post all the details of the competition and you can let us know what you thought of this interview. So, without further delay, let's get to it.
Pru Chapman: One Wild Ride is the exploration of a more meaningful life. A place where personal adventures collide with good business and positive impact. Here, I share real conversations with ordinary humans doing extraordinary things, from activists and entrepreneurs, to sports people and scientists, these are the people that help make our world a better place.
Pru Chapman: Theirs are stories of positivity, hope, expansion, and evolution. These are unscripted conversations where we dive deep into their highs and lows, their challenges and their triumphs. I'm Pru Chapman, and this is One Wild Ride.
Pru Chapman: (Singing)
Pru Chapman: Hey, Sophie, and welcome to the show.
Sophie Walker: Hi, Pru. Thanks so much for having me on.
Pru Chapman: It's an absolute pleasure to have you on. I have been fan girling for a very long time and I know a lot of the country has as well. So, it's a treat to have you here. Thank you so much. Now, Sophie, you're the mom of three young boys. You have a Master's in Public Health, a strong interest in women's health, and your podcast Australian Birth Stories, has had over 1.6 million downloads. This is absolutely huge. Congratulations.
Sophie Walker: Thank you. Sounds crazy when you say the numbers out loud.
Pru Chapman: And as a podcaster, those numbers, they're massive. You're doing something right and the reason that I wanted to get you on here and share a bit more, I guess kind of look behind the curtains and share a little bit of your story and also have a little bit of a dig into Australian Birth Stories and the huge rise in popularity that it's having and why it's resonating so much now.
Pru Chapman: I thought the best place to start would probably be at the beginning with your story because I know it really closely ties in with the birth of Australian Birth Stories. Can you tell us a little bit about when you first fell pregnant, because I understand you'd always had this interest in babies and birth, so what was it like when you did first fall pregnant?
Sophie Walker: That's funny. It's a funny story, which I haven't actually shared before. I was living back at my mom's house with my husband at the time and we were both madly finishing our Master's degrees and trying to save money by living there for a little while and then I was like, "Oh, there's never going to be a right time," and we could never navigate when that was going to be, so I thought, "Oh, bugger, I'll just start trying." And I actually ended up doing a pregnancy test on the morning of my sister's wedding 'cause I though, "Oh, I need to know if I'm pregnant, so if I can drink at the wedding or not."
Sophie Walker: It was a crazy ... It was February, so it was, I think it was 40 degrees, it was just a mad hot day and I quickly did the test and I'm not going to keep me a secret, so as soon as I did it, I told Jonah, and then I ran into my mom's bedroom and waved a pregnancy stick in her face and she was already stressed about the wedding, so it was a little bit crazy.
Sophie Walker: I was excited, we're excited, but then I had to kind of put a lid on it and just focus on my sister's wedding for the day and not tell her or overshare the main event, so I managed to pull that off. It was a whirlwind of finding out. Then I felt like I've always been obsessed with birth and women's health and sort of all things [inaudible 00:05:36] by birth, always holding babies.
Sophie Walker: I first grabbed the baby, so I was very confident going into my pregnancy and labor and I had a really pretty textbook pregnancy. I went through a birth center. I was trying to go sort of low intervention with midwives. I think by the time the labor began, I though, "I'm going to do it drug free. I'll be fine. It'll probably be quick." My own birth, I was a second daughter and my mom delivered me in about five hours, so I thought, "Oh, genetics is on my side. I'll have smooth sailing."
Sophie Walker: I read a really fabulous book, I'll give you the details of, Juju Sundin's Birth Skills, which is basically stay active during the labor and use kind of vocalization and physical movement to work through each contraction. So at the very first twinge ... Actually, yeah, I had a bit of a twinge and I had an appointment the next morning to see the midwife and I was 40 weeks. So I went in and she checked me and I was five centimeters dilated. I thought I'm halfway through labor and I haven't even really raised a sweat. I've got this totally in the bag.
Pru Chapman: Totally in the bag. Right, right. I can see the finish line. I've got this.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. So we went home and I was pacing up and down. We lived in Warrendale at the time so beautiful, busy area. So I was walking up and down our dirt road, up and down the hills with my TENS machine on counting the contractions. And shortly after that, so a few hours of that, I went into the hospital and they said, "Oh, still five centimeters." And I thought they were going to say, "Good to go. Off you go. Start pushing."
Sophie Walker: So continued on then probably for another 10 hours. And I was stuck at five centimeters. And I used everything I had in my bag of tricks up until that point. And when she said, "You're still five centimeters," I just gave up and I said, "Oh, I'll have the epidural now. Thanks. And I don't really care. I'm giving up. So somebody else can get this baby out." So I now use that and in subsequent births, I've thought there is a point in labor where you need to shift gears and you need to draw on all the resources and all the education you've done to get you over that hump and to transition. And I didn't have that at the time and I sort of, yeah it's almost like you don't know until you're there.
Sophie Walker: So it took a turn at that point. And I had an epidural and then they put syntocinon in to induce me and get my contractions going. He ended up being delivered with four [inaudible 00:08:13] and I had a big hemorrhage and it was all a bit panic stations. He came out not breathing and my mum was in the room and my sister was in the room and my husband. My mom ran out of the room crying saying, "Oh she's had a boy and he's not breathing." I was crying and it was all just totally not what I had planned at all.
Sophie Walker: And it was a very quick [inaudible 00:08:33]. They got him breathing really quickly and then they managed my breathing and suddenly everything was fine. But it was like whoa, what was that?
Pru Chapman: Nothing that you'd anticipated whatsoever.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. Yep. And I think that really had an effect on me with breastfeeding and emotionally I just felt like, yeah, the rug was pulled out from under me. I think I was a bit too cocky going in and yeah, I just totally did not expect that at all. So I went home from hospital in shock and my milk didn't come in and I was having trouble with feeding. And then living at home, my mum was amazing and made my meals. I remember her sort of spoon feeding me dinner. And she's saying, "I think he needs bottled water. He looks really hungry."
Sophie Walker: And I'm saying, "Mum, they don't do bottled water anymore. You don't know." So it was really really challenging and I just totally was not prepared for it. Even with good support systems I just ... Yeah. It was a shock.
Pru Chapman: Wow. And this is incredible because it's a topic that you'd been interested in for a long time. You were studying. Like you said, you were well prepared. You thought you knew what you were going in for but it took its own turn at the last minute.
Sophie Walker: Definitely. Yeah. And I think ... It didn't put me off birth, obviously. I went on and had two more children. But when I knew for this second time around I needed to do something different, I needed to learn more, and I just became obsessed in my second pregnancy with listening to other people's stories of what might happen and how people coped with it. And the only-
Pru Chapman: And where are you finding those stories, Sophie, because obviously your podcast wasn't around at the time? So were you just asking friends and family?
Sophie Walker: Yeah, well I did find another American podcast that I became obsessed with and I just listened to all of theirs. And I watched a lot of people [inaudible 00:10:23] sort of familiar with another show called One Born Every Minute. It's a little bit sensationalized but it's cameras in the birth suite following different people. And there's an English version and an American version and there's soon to be an Australian one coming out I think next month, in November.
Sophie Walker: So I watched all of that and I listened to the American ones, but none of them covered the Australian healthcare system. And each kind of country has different procedures and philosophies on managing birth and the drugs that they use and what's available. So I was getting a lot of firsthand experiences but they weren't in our healthcare system. And I think I was thinking oh I wish I could find an Australian one.
Sophie Walker: And I'm a mad podcast listener and I used to work at the cancer council with another girlfriend and I'd say, "What are you listening to this week?" And she'd tell me and we'd swap. And she said, "You should make your own one." And we sort of joked about it and then I thought oh well I'll give it a go. So I recorded my birth story of my second delivery. So I ended up ... I guess I missed a step there but I ended up having a fabulous second birth and I felt like that was supported by all of the stories that I'd listened to. And I did hypno birthing as well, so I used that. And I feel like that got me over that mental hurdle that I got stuck at initially.
Sophie Walker: So now that I'd had a perfect birth, or it felt perfect for me, I really wanted to share that and get more stories out. So I started by recording Louis' birth story, which was sort of a five hour low intervention, no drugs, so just kind of pushed him out onto a yoga mat and it was pretty perfect. He was my best birth.
Pru Chapman: Wow. Isn't that interesting, because it's in that moment, and I haven't been through childbirth so I like really want to dive in here, so when you were saying with [Nico's 00:12:14] birth, that's your first son, you exhausted your tool kit. And it sounds as though you just didn't have the, well certainly not the experience or the knowledge around other places where even your mind could go at those times. But then with your second son, you kind of had a few extra ... like you had those different stories to draw on. So was that kind of the support and the comfort maybe to bridge into the opposite directions? Is that where all of that came into play?
Sophie Walker: I think so. Yeah. And also I often hear on the show, women say, "Oh I didn't really equip my partner," and my husband was really shocked with what went down in Wally, my first delivery. And so this time around, I really equipped him with, "Okay, when it gets to this point, these are things that I need from you." So we came at it as kind of a team with more skills to draw on I think.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. And from a team approach as well.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, definitely. He's very sporty so he likes the idea of timing the contractions and helping with [crosstalk 00:13:16].
Pru Chapman: Come on team, we've got this.
Sophie Walker: Yep.
Pru Chapman: It's really interesting because I've only been ... I've been in the suite with one of my friends when she gave birth and it was kind of a similar situation as you actually. She'd been in labor for 56 hours which was just way too long. It was an old ... a hospital that ended up having their birthing suite shut down. So nothing was done properly. She did hemorrhage and her little boy wasn't breathing but did start breathing. And she had her mum, her sister, and I was there as well.
Pru Chapman: I think I was actually ... No, I don't think I know that I was the first to hold the baby because when she started hemorrhaging, her mum and her sister immediately went to her. And it was just absolute commotion. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think we've got an incredible medical system in a lot of ways. But the way that women go into it, yeah, it can go any which way at the last minute that is just completely unpredictable.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. And I think that's why ... There are a few other podcasts that do kind of only positive birth stories. I know a lot of philosophies around calm birth and hypno birth is, "Only tell me positive stories. I don't want to hear any horror stories." And I've deliberately made the podcast in a way where we do everything, the whole lot. So I've done everything from kind of miscarriage and stillbirth right through to fast kind of water births with no intervention.
Sophie Walker: Because I don't think you're doing anyone any favors by saying, "Oh it's all perfect," because then when it's not perfect, you kind of totally ... Yeah, you've got the rug pulled from out of you. Whereas now people come back to me after listening to the show and say, "I had to suddenly have an emergency cesarean and I remembered when Jodi in episode 156," or whatever, "said she felt really overwhelmed and then suddenly everything calmed down."
Sophie Walker: So they're drawing on other people's experience that might be sort of considered negative but they're using those as a kind of crutch when they need to. And I think, yeah, knowing that other people have gone through this and come out the other side is really really helpful at the time when you're panicking.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And just uncovering these stories that we don't have every day access to or we didn't until now, and just this ... I think broadly throughout society there's this lack of connection and lack of speaking about things. And that's one thing I really love about your podcast is you are ... You're showcasing the whole lot. And because it's so important, as you say, to have those crutchers along the way or that people can just flip a switch in their mind and think, "Okay, well someone else went through this and they got out the other side. Okay. It's just not what I expected."
Sophie Walker: Yeah. And I think initially I had no idea it was going to take off the way that it did, and it's almost become like a library that people are going to now and I'm getting messages often through Instagram saying, "Just been diagnosed with gestational diabetes. Which episode should I listen to?" I'm a one man show, so my website needs a lot of love. But I'm trying to put together a page on there, well it's up there at the moment but it needs a bit of work, of categories.
Sophie Walker: So if you've got polycystic ovarian syndrome or you have to be induced or different things have happened to you, you can listen to those select stories that might resonate with your situation a bit better as well.
Pru Chapman: Incredible. Incredible. And that kind of leads me into ... All right. You've started off. You're chatting with a friend. She suggests that you should start a podcast and then you record your own and then what happens next? Where do you go from there?
Sophie Walker: Yeah. I just sort of self taught off YouTube different things and put it together.
Pru Chapman: Perfect.
Sophie Walker: Now there's a multitude of courses so people can do it a much much easier way. But I did my story and I think that episode is my sister. And then I'd heard all this stuff of once you start a podcast you can't stop. You need to keep the momentum up. And also I've learned that you should have about five prerecorded. Don't have the pressure of just having to get one each week. But I was literally like oh on Monday I need a show, and I'm ringing friends. "Who wants to be on my show?"
Sophie Walker: And no one was really listening then as well. So I think people volunteered and gave kind of an honest account thinking no one else was going to listen, and now I'm like, "Oh I'm sorry, but that's had 15,000 listens." So it's funny. And then I sort of got to a point where I thought okay, well I need people outside my friendship circle and I wanted a little bit more variety. So I put a link on the webpage saying if you want to tell your story, you can.
Sophie Walker: The same time, I approached some kind of Instagrammers and people that I thought might draw a bit of a crowd, because I had no budget for marketing or anything like that. So I think really what put me on the map is I did Sophie Cachia who's known on Instagram as The Young Mummy. And her episode was wildly popular. She really helped me by advertising it. And then a lot of people came to see the show and then everyone wants to tell their birth story pretty much. Then I was flooded with applications.
Sophie Walker: And I've actually since taken down the application process once it hit 900. I thought I can't even respond to people and they're sending me pages and pages of what happened, and I was like I don't have time to read it, even though I love birth, and write back. And I felt awful sending kind of a template response back saying, "Thanks so much," when they've poured their heart and soul out onto the page for me. So at the moment, I'm not taking submissions and I do ... I'm working through my long waiting list. Not in order but in sort of trying to pick out the best variety and what people are asking for.
Sophie Walker: And then I balance that with ... Also I do approach some people that I'm interested in their story or I think that their listeners would love to know so it helps kind of me get the word out organically in that way.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And what do you think it is that makes people want to share their birth story?
Sophie Walker: It's such a pivotal day in your life and I think it gets to a point where your friends and family have heard it and they're not interested. And I think you also get to a point where sometimes you get caught in the shopping line and you see a pregnant woman and you quickly tell them. But there's limited outlets for you to download it. So I think ... There's sort of two things. I think people also like the keepsake of having it all recorded in one long form sort of listen that they can reflect back on and maybe share with their children down the track. And also they just want to talk to someone who really wants to know the nitty gritty, because I start right from conception and we talk all about the pregnancy and then the labor and then postpartum. So we really get that whole sort of 10 or 11 months in.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, I think people find it really therapeutic. My mum's a psychologist, so I joke that I've inherited a bit of her kind of calm approach in my interviewing style and it helps people to kind of, yeah, just open up in almost a therapy session.
Pru Chapman: I would agree. I've listened to a few of them myself and I would agree. You have such a calm, nurturing voice that just allows people to really unfold that story. So why do you think, Sophie, that it resonates so strongly?
Sophie Walker: Well, I think ... Even though I saw that there was a gap and I was looking for it, I didn't kind of realize that everybody else really was looking for this sort of stuff as well. I think there's lots of written blog posts, but I think people are time poor now. And I know a lot of pregnant women kind of listen on their commute to and from work. And then they say, "I can't wait. I'm on maternity leave so I can just listen all day long now and catch up."
Sophie Walker: But I think it's very ... It's a strange place to be, and when you're pregnant and you know you're dying to meet your baby and you want that day to come but then you have no idea what's going to happen. So I think the more you can hear other people's experiences, it just seems to take away that fear. Yeah, because you sort of ... Well, if you listen to all 137 episodes, you've kind of heard every different scenario that might go down. So it's not as terrifying. It lifts the veil on it all a little bit.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, I agree. And actually I was just having dinner at my brother's house. It was a couple of weeks ago. And two of his friends, their wives are pregnant, and one of them just found out that he was having twins. So we were just talking. He was asking me how my podcast was going and I was asking him what he was listening to, and he just said, "Australian Birth Stories. Start to finish, that's all I'm listening to." And it's really just been ... He just said, "It's so amazing. It's just been such a comfort to me just to hear all the different scenarios. And the fact that they're real stories. I know there's a lot of popular birthing books, but these are actual reality, like the actual story coming out of someone's mouth." As you say, all the nitty gritty detail.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. I've done a couple of episodes where the dad's involved, too, and everybody loves them. I need to try and do some more of those. It just ends up being logistically hard to get everybody in to a good time to do it. But yeah, I've heard another women saying that her husband now goes to the footy locker rooms and instead of talking about beer and football, he's saying, "Have you heard of doulas? You need to get a doula." So we're changing the male perspective as well, so that's exciting.
Pru Chapman: Very cool. It's very cool. Okay. So you did have that big spike, you mentioned with The Young Mummy, and you're still a one woman show and I completely understand. Running a podcast, there's a lot of work to it, particularly when you are releasing weekly. So has the rest of the growth ... I mean, since you did have that spike, was the rest of the growth fairly organic from there or were there other spikes as you kind of grew to this phenomenal 1.6 million downloads?
Sophie Walker: I've done a couple of other interviews, not that many. I did one on the ABC show Baby Talk, so I think that helped me gain some exposure as well. But generally, I think with each person, each person that comes on then shares it with their group of friends, and then all their friends listen. So it does just kind of snowball in that way. I've done a few other people, yeah like notable people, that have had a big spike. I did Kara, who was on The Block. She's Kara and Kyle. I think that might be one of my most popular episodes. She did hypno birthing, and we released her episode straight after she'd had her second baby, and there was a real spike then.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. I think it's just the people that get interviewed and then all their community listen. And then I think once people find it, if it suits where they're at in their life, if they're trying to conceive or they're pregnant with their first or second, then they end up listening to the whole back catalog. So once I get someone, then they've got 130 odd episodes to catch up on.
Pru Chapman: That's a good buy in.
Sophie Walker: It's true. Another great endorsement that I've had recently, I know a lot of midwives follow me, and student midwives that love it from that perspective. And I got a really beautiful email from the Australian College of Midwives recently saying that they wanted to formally endorse the podcast.
Pru Chapman: Oh wow.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. Midwives that listen now can count it as professional development hours, which is huge.
Pru Chapman: That's incredible, Sophie.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. So it's giving that firsthand experience to them. And I know a lot of them have come back and said, "Oh you know, we always do that procedure or I often use those words and I had no idea that that's how women heard it at the time or how influential small comments were." So it's giving them ... So they're doing all the medical training and that side of things but now it's giving a bit more of a human firsthand experience, too. Yeah, to combine. So yeah, it was a huge honor and really exciting.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. Absolutely beautiful. And congrats to you. That's literally changing people's lives, which is just so incredible. Now Sophie, let's shift it up a little bit of a gear. You mentioned when you came out of your first birth and you had Nico and that period after birth was really tough on you and as you mentioned, you had plenty of support. You had interest and knowledge in health but it was still really really tough. Can you talk us through ... I guess the best place to start with this would be the transition perhaps in identity first of all that a woman goes through after she gives birth.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, it's so huge. I think especially if you've had a traumatic birth. You come out and then it's like you just have to hit the ground running. There's so much expected of you. Suddenly you're this sole provider of another person, which is even ... There's kind of no amount of podcast listening or book reading that can equip you for that sensation of it's actually all on me. Even if you've got a supportive partner, if you're breastfeeding, it's all on you. And you suddenly, even though you're totally exhausted and depleted from labor, you have to just kind of pick up and keep going.
Sophie Walker: I've sort of occasionally joked when things have been really hard, there's like a bad merry-go-round you can't get off. When you're tired and you just feel like ... I mean, obviously there's a million positive things, but it is really sort of depleting and exhausting. And yeah, you're sort of learning who you are whilst trying to completely provide for somebody else and you sort of feel the responsibility of making sure that they're fine.
Sophie Walker: I know when witching hour hit with my first baby, even my mum, still living at home then, so we had four adults in the room and he was just crying and crying and crying. And we're all like not sure what was going on and I was feeding and we were ringing nurse on call and panicking. And I literally said, "I think that he's missing an organ. I think that there's actually something fundamentally wrong with him." And it ended up we were sort of talked down by the nurse on call saying, "I think you're overtired and he's overtired and the mum needs to go to sleep and everyone else needs to mind the baby for two hours and then start again and kind of reboot."
Sophie Walker: But it's all the anxiety and the hormones and, yeah, the sense of responsibility is just huge. And I think people sort of don't talk a lot about that period because they don't want to scare people. But then it's that same thing of if you've got no idea that you're going to have bleeding, cracked nipples and that breast feeding's really really challenging for most people, then you go in a little bit blind sighted in that first six week period, which is really really tough.
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Pru Chapman: Sophie, this is a bit of a [inaudible 00:29:45] question but is it just our society that kind of gets this wrong? Because I know for me, I don't have children, but a lot of my friends do and a lot of the women that I coach do, and it's always seemed to me, I guess, that everyone's parenting behind closed doors. So a series of my friends, a group of them, all had babies at the same time. And I was having conversations with each of them, but they weren't talking to each other and they weren't talking about ...
Pru Chapman: They were all going through the same challenges and they were all, as you say, feeling exhausted, depleted, having those huge hormonal shifts and the anxiety of keeping a small human alive. But they seem to be each doing it in silo and it's just something that always truck me. And I think just because I wasn't in that depleted, exhausted kind of state, I was my regular self, I had carried on, that yeah, it just really struck me. Is it our society, is it west end society does this? I mean, do other societies do it better or do it better?
Sophie Walker: Yeah, I think they definitely do. I think different communities do it differently and perhaps better, and then different countries definitely do. But you get a mothers group at around, I can't remember, I didn't get one this time. I think it's eight weeks. You start going to mothers group. And in my interviews with people, people have said, "Oh so I made a cake because I thought I have to get there and look like I know what I'm doing." So this pressure of I have to present well like I've got this. And then on reflection, they're like, "I had no sleep. I was terrified of what I'd say at the meeting." So yeah, there is a sense of putting on a front. I think a lot of people sort of do to try and make it look like I'm totally capable and I've got this.
Sophie Walker: I mean, you live in Byron. I think Byron is a bit of a birthing capital and I think they're a little bit more supportive across the whole postpartum and the 40 days after birth of nourishing and looking after each other from sort of what I've heard. But definitely Scandinavia. I feel like Scandinavia do everything right. And they have a much-
Pru Chapman: They do. What are they doing right in terms of the- [crosstalk 00:31:43] yeah. In terms of the postpartum. I agree. And I think just touching on Byron there, and I mean we know from our aboriginal culture up here, this was a place where women came to give birth. So I think there's definitely something about this land and this area that holds that energy and holds that support, which is perhaps why women that are looking for that support kind of come here and why it's persisted and why it's supported like that. But what does Scandinavia do well that we don't?
Sophie Walker: They, don't quote me on this, but from what I've heard, they have a much better system with midwifery care after you get home. I think in some countries, they have a postpartum doula come and live with you for a few weeks and they do your cooking and they help you with those burning questions when the baby's screaming like, "Have I overfed them? Have I underfed them? Are they sick?" And they answer all those questions and support you with a medical background.
Sophie Walker: And then there's also different components to pelvic floor and kind of the physical rehab of birth. In Sweden, I think they get women's health physio care for the year post birth to help you repair your pelvic floor and any abdominal separation and they really value and support that recovery. Whereas here, you have a six week check standard with your GP or your obstetrician and they say, "Yep, you're good to go." And if you don't outsource, like if you don't go and find yourself a women's health physio and get help in that department, then it's really not ...
Sophie Walker: It could be suggested by the GP but it's definitely not funded or a common kind of part of recovery, which just seems mind blowing to me. I'm going through my own issues with a physio and I'm paying for that out of pocket. And yeah, there's definitely a huge gap that we're missing out on there.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like well, to a degree here in Australia, we're baby focused, so checking that the baby's okay but there's not much support for the mother at all.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. It feels ... I mean, I'm definitely not trying to be critical of maternal health nurses. They've got a huge work load and they do amazing things and they're very well qualified. I think you have to be a nurse and a midwife and then do additional training. So they're incredible well qualified. But they sort of weigh the baby and do the checks. And they do a postnatal depression questionnaire. I think it's like 20 questions and that's a fantastic tool, but it's very brief. It's like how are you feeling.
Sophie Walker: And I think it's quite easy to fudge that as well because you know that they, unless you're really really depressed and you answer really honestly, I think yeah, there's definitely room for error on that one. And people can kind of say, "No, no. I'm good. I'm good," when really they're struggling. I think there's like an underlying fear that I've felt myself where you think well if I'm honest about how hard I'm finding it then maybe they'll ... Your worst case scenario, they'll take my baby if I look like I can't manage.
Sophie Walker: And they never really do that. Even if you're terribly sick, then often you'll be put into a care system where you and a baby are treated. But there's kind of those crazy sleep deprived fears that you have. So yeah, it's really ... There is a huge gap, I think, in nurturing the mother. And I think perhaps Chinese cultures are very across postpartum and they have very strict rules on what you eat and what you do. You're not allowed to leave that ... They call it confinement. So you don't leave the house for 40 days to let sort of that wound area where your placenta's come away heal and you have nourishing foods to help you just lie down and breastfeed and bond with your baby, which is how it should be. But our western society just doesn't really support that anymore.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. And I mean goodness, you see it, like there's so much attention when people are going through pregnancy that the focus is really on the birth and just even in the work that you do and there's just so much. I mean, that's the first big bridge to get across. And then it's almost like women get over the bridge and there's a cliff waiting for them on the other side that is just then completely not spoken about or what they can expect post birth.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. And I think there's a fantastic doctor who works out of Byron Bay, Oscar Serrallach. I'm not sure if you heard of him. He's written a book, The Postnatal Depletion Cure. And he's started to raise awareness around if you don't nurture yourself in that period and you don't get the help you need both sort of physically, emotionally, and ... Yeah. So he talks a lot about the minerals that you're depleted in. If you don't get yourself well cared for in that first kind of, well, ideally 40 days but sort of the first couple of months, then you end up having a huge dip later.
Sophie Walker: And I think after kind of sleep deprivation and everything catches up with you and it's sort of six months or 12 months, you can really have a real health crash just from, yeah, not taking that period seriously. That's kind of what's led me to start creating the first series I've done is Postpartum: Life After Birth, and that's the initial kind of ...
Sophie Walker: So I've interviewed five people in that series and it's talking to health professionals about what women need to look at and how they can nurture themselves through that time. So that first series has went on. I talked to a lactation consultant, a midwife, and she takes you through how to establish breastfeeding and the challenges and sort of transitioning to bottles and can you drink alcohol and what about nipple shields and all those sorts of things. And I talked to a women's health physio about how to do pelvic floor exercises and what to look out for if you do have a prolapse or any of those kind of conditions.
Sophie Walker: I've got another interview with a psychologist on mental health recovery and how to look out for signs of postnatal depression and anxiety. So I'm trying to bridge that gap by going out to speak to the health professionals that perhaps some women don't have access to or don't realize that they should be considering these things. So that's kind of where the audio series has been born out of.
Pru Chapman: And I love that. For anyone that missed that, it is ... It's called Life After Birth, and this is available on Sophie's website, which is Australianbirthstories.com.au?
Sophie Walker: Just dot com.
Pru Chapman: Just dot com. Goodness. I was thinking as I was looking through it, before we having this interview, I thought it's such a great gift to give someone as they're going ... if they're pregnant or instead of a gift for the baby to actually give to the mom to have this kind of support. As you say, it's an audio series that's supported to actually start to give some guidance around that area.
Pru Chapman: And I just think that's so important. And I'm not sure if it was the doctor you were just talking about but we were listening ... We have an amazing local radio station up here and there was a conversation on there recently which really struck me, and it was really about how women after they give birth, they go through this incredible hormonal change. They're still the same essence of themselves, but so much of their person changes. And this doctor that I was listening to was likening it to going from childhood and then going through those huge hormonal shifts that you do in adolescence to become an adult.
Pru Chapman: And what he was saying was when you're an adult, you never say, "Oh I want to get back to being a child," but then it seems when women become mothers, they have their baby, they go through these huge transitions. The conversation that we seem to be having in our society is around getting back to your pre-baby body or getting back to your old self. And it's this conversation about going backwards. And once you've been through this huge life change and hormonal change, you're a different person coming out the other side. There's no adults out there that say, "Oh I wish I could go back to being a child." And yet we use this around women after they've been through childbirth, which is just ...
Pru Chapman: When it was pointed out and I heard it explained so articulately and I just kind of butchered it there, but it just made so much sense. When we're having this lack of support but also the conversation that we're having in society is always about going backwards. Not about upscaling yourself and giving the tools and really honoring that time after birth so that you can move forward with all of the incredible assets and characteristics and softness that becoming a mother brings to you.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, definitely. I posted, yeah, I'm going to butcher it as well, but a sentiment talking about it recently that as a society, we just love the idea of you announce a pregnancy, everyone's thrilled for you, everyone wants to touch the bump and look at the size and guess whether it's a boy or a girl. And then straight after birth, everyone's trying to hide the evidence like how do I get rid of these stretch marks, how can I kind of tuck my extra skin into my pants, how can I look like my boobs used to look with some fancy bra when I've been breastfeeding?
Sophie Walker: And suddenly there's all this kind of shame and sense that we have to put it all back how it was and we've created a whole nother person within our body and then nourished it. And there should be the opposite of shame. And even with all my knowledge and reading, I'm going through postpartum now at six months after my last one and I still look at my body in a way that I wish that I didn't. Yeah. We really need to shift that and I think it's going to take a long time, but that's kind of where the work needs to be done where we celebrate the way that we look afterwards and the work that our body's done and what we've created and our new role and enjoy that rather than trying to get back to how it used to be. Because you'll never be the person that you were before you were a mother and you've produced a person. It's huge.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. And thank goodness. We don't want you going back to the person that you were before. You're the version of yourself 2.0 really, like the new, improved, hugely capable person. Yeah, I really look forward to the day that society changes and that we change our opinions in the conversation I think and the dialogue around that. I guess just off the cuff, where do you think we would start by doing that? I mean, I think the program, for example, like the conversations that you're having on your podcast and then talking about life after birth like you do. I think this is definitely the way moving forward. Where else would we see the big shifts in it?
Sophie Walker: I think we have to go right back to the start. I've heard people talking recently. It's how you talk about your own naked body in front of your children. My eldest is nearly six and I'm often getting out of the shower around him. And if I am kind of saying negative things about my own body when I'm hopping out, like, "Oh look at Mummy's big tummy," or things like that, it's how you talk about your own body in front of really young children that shapes how they view things.
Sophie Walker: And I've got boys, so it's slightly different. But I think there's a lot of work that's starting to be done about girls' menstruation and how they feel about bleeding, because that's another kind of shameful dirty thing that we have in society. Oh don't tell anyone. And all that stuff you've done in the office place of like, "Have you got a tampon? Can you pass me a tampon?" And you don't want anyone to see. So it's changing the way we look at kind of ... Yeah, the way that we develop and periods and the way we look at our body at a really really young age. I think it has to go right back to kind of two and three of how we're raising the children, which feels like another added parenting pressure. But I think that's really where it has to start because that's when those sort of thoughts and foundation ideas are kind of being laid down.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. And taking the shame out of it. It's fascinating. It's a shame that we've introduced and I love that you say, likening it to periods and that kind of thing. We had Brooke on here, the general manager of Tom Organic just a few episodes ago. And I think that they're doing some incredible work in that area. And they've just released this ... It's a beautiful marketing campaign, and that's what it is. It's a marketing campaign. But what they're doing ...
Pru Chapman: I mean, it's a behavior change campaign as well where they've got some wonderful influences that they've worked really closely with, Elyse Knowles being one of them. And I don't know if you've seen it. It's being shown, like some of the ads are being shown at the moment. They're beautiful ads. It sounds so strange because they're dealing with periods and that kind of thing, but just the way that they've approached and celebrated this campaign, it's really ... And having these wonderful really wholesome kind of influences involved in it, I really think it is starting to take some of that same away and really just put it on the table as an open conversation, a natural part of life. Which is really cool to see.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. Haven't seen that campaign yet but I know they've done some amazing things and we've worked together as well with their Tooshies nappie brand. Yeah. They're doing amazing things. And they're also investing money back into another project called the Babes project, supporting women that have fallen pregnant kind of unexpectedly and need that support network. So yeah, huge love for Tom and everything they do.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, very cool. So cool. Awesome. Now you've actually gone on, so you've got the Postpartum: Life After Birth series but you've actually gone on and launched a companion series from there which is around discovering motherhood. So can you talk us through that and why you saw it as necessary to introduce that kind of second component.
Sophie Walker: Well I think on my Instagram account I very sort of honestly share what I'm going through and I've sort of recently went through witching hours, which is basically when the baby cries kind of from any time between sort of 7:00 and 11:00 at night. And there's nothing particular wrong with them, they just cry. And again, that's another thing. People are like, "No one ever told me this happens at six weeks and goes on for about a month." So as I've gone through these stages I'm trying to find sort of, yeah, professionals that can explain it. So in this next series, I've got six small interviews with healthcare professionals and I've got ... and one with a neonatal pediatrician talking about what is actually going on during that time.
Sophie Walker: And I mentioned before, Doctor Oscar Serrallach who's explained all the mineral depletion that women go through. I've interviewed him about how you can best support yourself and what kind of questions you should be asking, a blood test you can ask for, at that six week check, which is often very routine. But I think it's really important that we flush out that appointment and really find out what resources you need to go to next and do you need to have a prolapse check or do you need to see a pelvic floor physio and things like that. And I've even ...
Sophie Walker: I did a pelvic floor assessment the other day on my Instagram and showed everyone what that looks like. Not showing my vagina but showing what goes on in the room just to take the mystery out of those sorts of things to make people feel less scared about going to get them done. And now I'm at the stage where I'm introducing solids, so I've gone to a nutritionist and midwife and talked about introducing solids and what foods, what kind of whole foods are best and should I do puree or should I do finger foods.
Sophie Walker: So I'm kind of walking them through the journey that I'm on myself and that I'm going to the professionals. Because I'm not going to try and pretend that I know all the answers to these things. But another big thing that has come out of discussions on Instagram is sex after a baby, and I put it out there a few months ago saying did they want to learn more information about lack of libido post baby and how to get back into sex after a traumatic birth and stitches and prolapse and those sorts of things. So I was able to secure an amazing interview with a leading sexologist from Melbourne, Chantelle Otten. And we talk all about sort of practical things you can do in the bedroom to help support that first time you have sex.
Sophie Walker: And we also talk about the chemistry of what's involved with breastfeeding and why you have a limited libido during that breastfeeding time and the biological and primal reasons for that. Because you're kind of not in a position where it's healthy to have another baby at that stage, so it's kind of the body's way of reducing that likelihood I guess. But yeah, lots of really interesting discussions happening in that second series of where I'm at really at six months post.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. Amazing. And so incredible that you can ... It's such an authentic way to share the knowledge because you're walking through it yourself. And I love that you've pulled in the experts there to really give us a better understanding. And I mean, I'm a science nerd from way back, and I think our bodies are the smartest. We underestimate them so completely, which you well know in your work. But yeah, all the things that our bodies do that do protect us for the survival of ourselves and the survival of our children. Just fascinating.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, it's really exciting. And that sort of stems back to birth, you working with the body instead of working against it, which is with contractions. Don't fight the contraction but move into that opening. So there's lots of things. So yeah, unpacking and understanding that to work with the way we've been designed instead of trying to fight it really.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. So I think this conversation, I love that you've developed this series and I think it's such an important conversation that we're having right now and one that we really hope just kind of takes off and it starts getting some air time. Because like I said, I just feel like it's like parents finally get over ... They get over the bridge of actually having the baby and then there's kind of this free fall to follow. So the more conversation, the more sharing, and I think the more reality that we can have in there as well, like I mentioned with my friends or doing their best 100% but doing it in silo behind closed doors.
Pru Chapman: If we could just bring a little bit more of that into the dialogue and be shared a bit more publicly and a bit more openly, then from my experience, it's certainly that everyone's going through the same thing. It might be a few days apart, it might be a few months apart. But we're all going through a really similar kind of cycle. And the more knowledge that we have around it, the more stories, the more sharing that we do, the more supported everyone's going to feel.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, couldn't agree more.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, awesome. So Sophie, if you did have just some headline pieces of advice for new mothers or new families out there, just someone I guess ... or maybe it's actually ... This is a better way to phrase it. If you were going to give yourself some advice back when you first fell pregnant with your first son, what would you tell yourself?
Sophie Walker: Don't just do the hospital course. Do another course. I'm obviously a huge fan of hypno birthing, but calm birth. There's plenty of great courses. She births. Just do another course and do it with your partner so that you both realize that there probably will be a point in the labor where you lose the will and what you can do to get yourself over that hump and different techniques and trips. I think that was what I was lacking initially. And listen to every episode of my podcast.
Pru Chapman: Yes. Yes. I couldn't agree more with that. Like I said, if my brother and his friends are anything to go by, it's just given them so much solace in this time when they're all becoming first time dads. So definitely worthwhile for the dads to listen. I know we've got a lot of male listeners out there as well.
Pru Chapman: So Sophie, one of my final questions for you. What are you most proud of in your work today?
Sophie Walker: Yeah, that's hard. I'm proud of the whole project overall because I still just think it's crazy. I get messages every day saying, "I just had my baby." One woman messaged me recently on Instagram and said, "I've just had my baby. I haven't even told my mum yet." I was like they feel so connected to me that they want to share that. So being allowed into people's spaces in this way and people opening up and sharing the way that they have on the show is just so special.
Sophie Walker: So I guess I'm proud that I've put myself in a position that people feel so connected and open to share in that way. Yeah. The whole thing blows my mind really.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. And it's having such a positive impact so far and wide. Incredible. Okay. Well to wrap us up, Sophie ... And actually before we wrap up, I've got some rapid fire questions that I ask all my guests. But I also wanted to say a huge thank you to you because having launched my own podcast recently, you've just been such a big supporter from the sidelines. And we're in totally different arenas. But even with its own Instagram, there's always a little comment from you or a high five or something like that. So just from one podcaster to another, I just wanted to say a huge thank you for all of your support.
Sophie Walker: I was so shocked when you asked me, to be honest, because I've listened to every episode of your last season. I was like no, she interviews special people that have done amazing things, so I don't think I'll fit in there. But yeah, I love ... I honestly love your show. Yeah. Genuine love for the show, comments on there. But people should definitely listen to all of season one if they haven't already because I've loved it.
Pru Chapman: Oh thank you. Thank you. And here we are in season two. So yeah, just a huge thank you from me. And you're exactly right. I do interview really special people making a lot of positive impact, so of course you are right at the top of my list. All right. So to wrap us up, Sophie, I'm going to ask you a few rapid fire questions. Tea or coffee for you?
Sophie Walker: Coffee, 100%.
Pru Chapman: Always. Fate or free will?
Sophie Walker: Free will I think.
Pru Chapman: Love it. Do you have any kickass daily habits in place?
Sophie Walker: I don't really. I've just got to get everyone to school and kinder. If I can get the lunches made and out the door, that's probably my daily habit at the moment. I look forward to having a bit more time to perhaps start the day with yoga or Pilates, but not at the moment.
Pru Chapman: How about right now keeping three small humans alive? I think that's a pretty important one.
Sophie Walker: Yeah.
Pru Chapman: All right. If you could jump on a plane tomorrow and go anywhere in the world with anyone, where would you go and who would you go with?
Sophie Walker: I have to say the family, otherwise it sounds bad I think. But I'm really interested to go to western Australia at the moment. I've been lucky enough pre kids to have traveled the world quite extensively. I've been to a lot of beautiful places and I feel like now it's time to do Australia. And I keep seeing people doing the caravanning around Australia and I definitely want to go and check out some Ningaloo Reef in western Australia. So I'd go there.
Pru Chapman: Do it. Do it. We went late last year. Sorry, I'm just going to quickly interject on this question. But we went late last year because I just had this small window, I think I had about 10 days, and it didn't seem like long enough to go overseas and come back. But I just wanted to get as far away as I could and so we went to WA and we went down and spent most of our time down in the migrant river region and it blew my mind. Like it was so beautiful and it was so quintessentially Australia.
Pru Chapman: The red earth and the raging seas and the beautiful gum trees, there was snakes everywhere. It was just so ... It felt like the wild wild west of Australia and it was just ... Yeah, it really ... I'm Australian, I was born here, but I felt a connection to Australia like I've never felt anywhere else that I did in western Australian.
Sophie Walker: My husband's Fijian as well so I feel like I need to show him more of Australia. So yeah, that's the next place.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. Likewise with my Brazilian partner. Awesome. All right. So who else would you like to see me interview on the podcast?
Sophie Walker: So many people. But somebody who's come to mind. I interviewed Jessica Smith at Paralympian. I'm not sure if you know of her.
Pru Chapman: Yeah.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. I did her birth stories on the show and she's actually about to have her third baby and they've just moved to Dubai. But she's done incredible things for people that don't know of her. She's a Paralympian. She was born missing part of one arm and then she went on to win gold in swimming. And then since then, she's done huge work around body image. She's open about having suffered from eating disorders and then finding her identity as a disabled person and then how she's navigated motherhood with pretty much the use of one arm and a little bit of her second arm.
Sophie Walker: So I think she's incredible and I love all that she's done. She's just brought out kids books on a little girl that has missing part of her arm as well. So she's doing wonderful things for raising awareness about disability and how to teach children about those sorts of things. So I love all that she does.
Pru Chapman: Amazing. All right. I am definitely going to reach out to her. Everything you just said, I would love to hear more about everything there. Okay. Now how can people best connect with you?
Sophie Walker: Yeah, so I'm on Instagram. It's @australianbirthstories and my web address is Australianbirthstories.com and my episodes come out every Monday, so every Monday there's a new birth story. So you can find me on all good podcast apps.
Pru Chapman: Amazing. And yeah, so everyone, definitely go to the website because that's got all of the episodes listed on there as well. And it's really beautiful. There's lots of ... I'm such a visual person. I love seeing the photographs of the mums and of them in birth as well. And actually, also your Instagram feed, and I didn't mention that earlier, but I think you've got, what, close to 70,000 followers now?
Sophie Walker: Yeah. That's about right. Yep.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, a huge amount. I follow that Instagram account because I love you and I love what you do, but the images are incredible and just stuff you just don't see anywhere else. So everyone, if you're not following that. And if you're becoming a parent or you are a parent, but even if like me you're not a parent, I think just the miracle of birth, you showcase that so beautifully, Sophie.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. And there's some great discussion on there, too, and advice of women sharing. So if you are pregnant, it's really good to hop on and read the comments. There's always lots of beautiful gems of wisdom on there.
Pru Chapman: Perfect. Perfect. Final question for you, Sophie. What's next?
Sophie Walker: Well, I've been slaving away to get this Discovering Motherhood series out, so I think I'm going to have a little rest to be honest because- [crosstalk 00:57:49]
Pru Chapman: Perfect time of year.
Sophie Walker: I didn't take maternity leave, so I might take December off. We'll see.
Pru Chapman: I think that sounds like a great idea. I feel like you've actually perfectly timed it to take December off.
Sophie Walker: Yes.
Pru Chapman: Wonderful. Sophie, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been an absolute pleasure.
Sophie Walker: Oh thanks so much for inviting me on. It's been lovely to chat.
Pru Chapman: Thank you, lovely.
Sophie Walker: That's all right. I hope it was all right.
Pru Chapman: That was amazing. It was amazing. How did you feel?
Sophie Walker: Yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah. You're very easy to talk to as well, so I was just chatting away.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, yeah. It was beautiful, some of the stories you had to share in there. I think we covered lots of ground there but also kind of really kind of nestled into the juicy bits that I was hoping that we'd kind of dive into a little bit deeper.
Sophie Walker: Yeah. I think there was one question I forgot what you'd asked me so I just rambled on, but yeah.
Pru Chapman: It was all great. It was all great. And it's also fascinating because obviously I'm not a mum, so it's a topic that's so fascinating to me. I'm such a, what do you call it, a novice or an amateur. I just know so little about it, so it's just so incredible- [crosstalk 00:58:57] Yeah. I'm totally intrigued. Exactly. It's like I haven't even scratched the surface on it. Yeah, you're just a wealth of wisdom.
Sophie Walker: Thanks. Well, you're doing amazing things, too. I think I was on your email list ages ago about ... I think I signed up to get some tips, business tips or something, and then it's all just kind of funny how things circle around. Then you're like oh that's you, and oh that's your podcast that I was already listening to and things like that.
Pru Chapman: Oh so cool. So cool. And just how we all evolve as well, like evolve and change. And the new areas that we go into and cover. Yeah, it's so fun when you've kind of got this business community that just kind of, yeah, grows and changes over time.
Sophie Walker: Yeah, it's true.
Pru Chapman: Yeah. Well awesome, awesome. Well, like I mentioned, we'll be live ... Yeah, it won't be too long. I think it's about three weeks we'll set yours live, but I'll give you plenty of heads up before that.
Sophie Walker: Cool.
Pru Chapman: I'm not actually ... I'll email you, but I might get a few photos. Or should we just grab the ones off your website? Are they best?
Sophie Walker: It's up to you. I'll send you through some options and then you can just decide what suits you.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, perfect. Perfect. I know Alex who works for me, she's just had her third baby and she's a huge fan of yours, so she'll be paying attention, like special attention to this one. She was really excited when she saw your name on the list.
Sophie Walker: Oh that's nice. Are you happy for me to tell my audience that I'm going to be on then or do you ... I don't know. Do you like the suspense of just announcing it on the day?
Pru Chapman: No, no. Go for it. I'm more than happy for you to share. Yeah. Absolutely.
Sophie Walker: Cool. Thank you so much.
Pru Chapman: Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been great and I'm sure we'll connect. And if you're ever up this way in Byron, then definitely give me a shout. And same likewise if I'm in Melbourne. We are trying to get down there. Every time we go down ... We were down a few months ago and we're like we need to come to Melbourne more. Especially now that we live in Byron because you kind of ... Yeah, it is a small country town, so it's nice to get into the city and do city things. And we just ate Asian food from the second we arrived until the second we left. [crosstalk 01:00:53]
Pru Chapman: That is pretty much. We ate dumplings twice a day for about five days. [crosstalk 01:01:00] So nourishing. So yeah, we'll have to try and catch you. Are you right in Melbourne?
Sophie Walker: I live in Heidelberg so I'm like 15 minutes from the city.
Pru Chapman: Oh cool. Cool.
Sophie Walker: So close.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, we'll definitely try and catch [inaudible 01:01:13].
Sophie Walker: Yeah, yeah. That would be great. We'll have coffee. That would be awesome.
Pru Chapman: Lovely. Well awesome. Thank you so much again.
Sophie Walker: Okay. I'll talk to you soon.
Pru Chapman: Yeah, perfect. Thanks, Sophie. Talk to you soon.
Sophie Walker: Thank you. Bye.
Pru Chapman: Bye.
Pru Chapman: To wrap up, I want to say a huge thank you to Costa Ray for the tunes, Animal Ventura for recording and production. To the people of the Bundjalung nation from the country where this podcast is produced and to you, our incredible listeners. As always, the conversation continues over on Instagram. So be sure to follow along over @pruchapman. That's P-R-U Chapman. So meet me over there now and I'll see you right back here next week.
Pru Chapman: (singing)