Good Citizens | Nik Robinson
Conversation with Nik Robinson
Good Citizens make sunglasses from 100% recycled, single-use plastic bottles. It was founded by Nik Robinson and his 8-year old son Harry with a mission to play their part in ‘untrashing’ the planet. Every pair of Good Citizens sunnies pays for 1kg of plastic to be pulled out of the ocean.
“It’s funny having little kids as business partners because they are so engaged and involved, you just have to stop sometimes and go, they’re absolutely right.”
Good Citizens was founded by Nik Robinson and his 8-year old son Harry with a mission to play their part in 'untrashing' the planet. They make sunglasses from 100% recycled, single-use plastic bottles.
It took Nik and his family 752 days & more than 2500 failed attempts to turn a plastic bottle into a pair of sunnies. Since then they’ve been featured in Forbes and National Geographic, spoken at the United Nations Global Conference & Tesla, and won The Design Files Sustainable Design Initiative for 2020.
Every pair of Good Citizens sunnies also pays for 1kg of plastic to be pulled out of the ocean, which is a good thing because at the rate we’re going, by 2050 there will be more plastic in the oceans by weight than there are fish.⠀
This is a very spirited chat with Nik, that we really enjoyed.⠀
Mentioned in conversation…
The story of bringing Good Citizens to life
The way in which environmental stewardship is part of every aspect of the brand, from design, manufacturing, packaging to shipping and ocean cleanups
Having business partners that are your children!
The resilience needed to get through 752 days with more than 2500 failed attempts to turn a plastic bottle into a pair of sunnies
Being featured in Forbes and National Geographic, spoken at the UN Global Conference & Tesla, along with winning The Design Files Sustainable Design Initiative for 2020
Follow Good Citizen here:
Full Podcast Transcript - Nik Robinson, Good Citizen
Pru Chapman:
Hi, Nick, and welcome to the show.
Nick Robinson:
Oh, it's an absolute honor. I think you're fantastic, so to be invited on today is brilliant. Highlight of 2021.
Pru Chapman:
We're kicking off with the highlights early. It is an absolute treat to have you here. And something I mentioned to you actually, just before we jumped on live, which is that a bunch of my friends are rocking out, it's the middle of summer, we're all hanging at the beach and they've all got your sunnies on. So I feel like this podcast couldn't be more perfectly timed. Now, many of our listeners are big fans of yours as is the rest of the world, but for those of our listeners who haven't come across Good Citizens yet, can you tell them a little bit about your sunnies and what makes them unique?
Nick Robinson:
Good question. Look, yes, we never set out to make sunglasses, we set out to untrash the planet, but it just so happened that one 600 mil plastic bottle makes one pair. So the hinges, the arms, the frame fronts, 100% recycled plastic. We make them in three flavors, cola, lemonade, and aqua. They're in two styles, there's the modular system, so the same arms and clips, which are all interchangeable all clipped together. We make them in Sydney, I wanted to keep it really, really local. And every time someone buys a little email pops into their inbox with their unique citizen number and we are building a population of Good Citizens that care. This is the honest answer and yet your friends that rocked up to see you are all Good Citizens, they've all got their citizen numbers and that's essentially the business as it stands right now. That's what Good Citizen does, it turns trash into good.
Pru Chapman:
Amazing. It's really interesting because those friends of mine that are showing up with your sunnies on, they've got this story that they love to tell. It's not just like, "oh, I like your sunnies" they're like, "oh, great, thanks." It's much more than that, they want to tell me all about the sunnies, they want to tell me that they're modularized, they want to tell me about that they're untrashing the planet, they want to tell me that they're local as well. So you really are building this. It's this community around the brand, which I absolutely love. Also it's just coming up again and again, I think after 2020 in particular, this real values alignment that people have with the brands that they support and the way that they showcase them as well. So you're doing a bang up job, but I would like to get back to the start and ask about where the idea for launching Good Citizens came from because you said you didn't actually set out to make sunnies.
Nick Robinson:
No, I was in a job, my kids at school, Archie was six and Harry was eight or seven, sorry, at the time and they were learning about the environment and they would go home and go, "Hey, the world's doomed and all the animals are dying." I'd look across at my wife at the dinner table and give that not knowing parent look to go, "The world isn't doomed and the animals are fine." But then you realize actually these little people don't have adult brains and they have little people brains and they can't process things the same way we adults can. Then my old boss went to Thailand and I told him to visit Krabi Beach and he said to me, "I would have loved to, but it was covered in plastic bottles." So for me, that was the final light to go on in my head to go, "What can we do as a family to play our part?" Blatantly knowing we cannot solve this issue, it takes everybody, but maybe we can do something that helps and steers a conversation in the right direction.
Nick Robinson:
That's essentially where it came from because frustration and actually shaking hands with the kids. They went, "Dad, you can fix this." And I'm like, so I shook their hands and I then woke up the next morning, went like, "Let's do it." So that's how it started. It's really that simple, I think just wanting to try and help.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah, awesome. So this is interesting because all right, your kids have called you into action and I couldn't agree with you more that kids, they are so savvy these days, they're so onto it and they are calling us out. You and I are probably a similar age and we can get a bit complacent, but kids they're so fresh and they're being educated about what's going on out there, and they really are calling us up to action. So your kids have called you up to action, you've given them a handshake, you've heard about all these plastic that's on Krabi Beach, what comes next?
Nick Robinson:
I talked to my wife and I said, "Roy, I'm going to do this." She just rolled her eyes going, "How are you going to do this?" So we wrote a list of all the things that we thought we needed to know. The kids wrote down, you need to be able to talk to really important people dad, so I said, "Okay, I think I can do that." We need to know about logistics, supply chain management. We wrote three pages of A4 of all the jobs that we thought you'd need to know about to do this job. Together as a family, we ticked off three and we thought, well, there's a good ratio. The other the 300 roles we don't know how to do, but we can do three so let's start.
Nick Robinson:
So I essentially sat down at my desk, cleared the deck, said my wife, I'm going to spend four months, let's put a little bit of money aside and let's cut back on the family requirements and needs. I spent four months researching plastics, polymers, how it all works, how recycling works, what's the best way to go about things, where do things get manufactured, brands that are claiming to do it. The thing that really upset me is I looked at a lot of brands that I thought were doing it, but they were using words like recyclable. When you look at the word recyclable, that means it's made of a single source and it's easy to reprocess, but it wasn't made from recycled materials, it wasn't coming from a recycled material. It was coming from a virgin material. Consumers alike, "Oh, isn't recycled the same as recyclable?" And I'm like, "No, it's not. It's very different." A tin of Heinz beans is recyclable once the beans are taken out, the tin goes back in but it wasn't made from tin, it wasn't made from a recycled product as far as I know.
Nick Robinson:
So I basically break it down into that. We did the four months, we looked at it, we worked through it. And then I said to my wife, "We need to put $20,000 in and we need to go to the next stage." I think to summarize, we have five stages where there were leap off points and there was no point of return. So the four months ticked it, then went into the next phase, went to that and then we decided the only way we're going to know is if we can try and make a machine to make the glasses. So at that point as a family we put $60,000 in, and that was a point where we went, "Wow, this is serious, 60 grand." That's a lot of money for us as a family. But why would we give up trying, you got to give it a go. So we pressed go and six months later from Taiwan this machine arrived that this man had made, you just shut your shed for four months and came out and went.
Nick Robinson:
It arrived and we put it into production and it didn't really work, and consequently since then we've made 55 changes to that machine in Sydney, we've made over 3,000 failures. Then I remember it actually worked one day and I sat outside the factory in the Northern beaches of Sydney on the concrete floor and it was when all the bush fires were happening and I just sat there and I was like, "Wow, that bottle that we've processed has made a pair of eyewear frames." I put some lenses and I wore them and I've still got that pair. It's got number one written on it with a little sticker.
Nick Robinson:
Then you crack that and then there's a million other jobs and then you've got to work at how are you're going to get your plastic done and how you're going to process it. It's literally easiest way to describe making is our sunnies is like making the Craft beer, there were so many different intricate points that it could go wrong and taste terrible, and it's only through trial and error that you actually work it out. Yeah, that's the kind of steps we've gone through but then you've got a product, but how do you market it? How do you get it out to the world? How do you build a brand? How do you...
Nick Robinson:
I'm sure your listeners they'll appreciate when I say throughout all this I'm exhausted because my brain has never worked so hard. Every day I woke up and was never hit with a good news day, it was a terrible day where I had to solve problems, problems, problems, problems. It's that kind of resilience that you need as someone who's inventing something. You need that resilience and it's been incredibly tough on all of us as a family because we're all in it together, we don't get away from it seven days a week. Kids asking questions, my wife asking questions, my most patient wife looking a little bit worried about hmm, we're now at $200,000, is this going to work?
Pru Chapman:
Wow. I think it's important for our listeners to hear as well because you didn't come from a product engineering background, did you?
Nick Robinson:
No, my background is I used to be head of content for the networks and make shows. But prior to that, I'd worked in advertising as a creative director and I had my own agency. So branding, advertising, marketing, design, and I think I've got an eye for things and I've gut. I'm 47 and I got a gut for what does and doesn't work. I think as founders, that's probably one of the only things you do have, is you need boundless energy and trust your gut on situations. I have no experience, but we got help on the areas that we didn't know, and I had to learn all the areas that were essential for the business to move forward.
Pru Chapman:
Let's drill into that a little bit because as you said, you got this machine from Taiwan, but then you made an incredible number of pairs of sunglasses that didn't actually work. So you've spent your four months, you've gone down, you've worked it out on paper, and then the machines arrived and you've actually started making the sunnies, great, this should all be get up and go from here. But it sounds like there was knock back after knock back from here. So how long were you in that stage where you were literally showing up everyday trying to make sunnies that weren't working?
Nick Robinson:
753 days. I know that because [inaudible 00:12:06] counter. That's 753 days that my wife's been incredibly patient, 753 days from the moment I shook hands with the kids the next morning to when we sold the first pair and we turned on the Shopify website. I don't know that does sound a long time, doesn't it? It was 752 days of pain and then you turn on the website and I'm like, "Oh, how do you do an e-commerce website?" And I'm literally sleeping four hours a night and I've got to set up that, logistics. So that's how long it took. And to be honest, we're reinventing a lot of things about how manufacturing happens and there's a lovely naivety when I talk to all these experts and say, "We're going to do this." They go, "Hmm, on paper that's not going to work" But I go, "Well, I don't deal with things on paper, I deal with what could potentially work and there's a risk factor and the risk is all on me because I'm paying for that time."
Nick Robinson:
But it's interesting, when you come into something with no experience, naivety is a great, great thing because you would never... If someone said to me, you're going to go every day for 752 days of pain, would you do it? I probably wouldn't. But I thought I could have it
Pru Chapman:
[crosstalk 00:13:16].
Nick Robinson:
I thought I could nail it in four months.
Pru Chapman:
I love that naivety, and I see it time and time again with business owners. It's so unbridled and enthusiastic and it is, I think it's what gets you through those early years. I guess it's something I imagine like having small children, the mothers are releasing that oxytocin, which is what gets them through, and the fathers as well, gets them through the really first few years that are incredibly difficult because otherwise, why would you do this? Same with a business. There's 752 days showing up, unless you've got enthusiasm because also you're paying for the pleasure and by the sounds of things $200,000 later, it's an incredible investment of time and energy. So when you did, you got that first pair of sunnies, you're sitting there and you take the next step. So I imagine that we're in to stage three here, which is actually we can tell a pair of sunnies. So what did you do turn on the Shopify website and hope for the best? What happened next?
Nick Robinson:
Yeah, we turned on the website and yeah, we got a sale. So okay, let's keep the machine running. But then we go, okay, everyone in the industry was going now to make a pair of eyewear frames takes 100 hours or 100 pairs of hands touching this product because you got to tumble it, do this, that. I want to make a pair of sunnies every 90 seconds and our first pair of sunnies took 752 days. But I don't rest, I'm like, okay, so we've done that now how do we make it quicker? How do we change the machine to make it quicker? Because I want to get a pair of sunglasses made every 90 seconds. So right now we can make a pair of sunnies every 90 seconds. The machine sticks sometimes because the bottle os different than the plastic that we produce.
Nick Robinson:
But for me, we turn on the website, we start to get some sales and we started to get real time feedback. We had to change the design a little bit based on feedback. That's one of the hardest things, you're so exhausted when you... People don't realize just to get to market, you've burned everything you've ever got inside you. Then you turn on your website then the real work starts because no one knows your brand, no one knows your story, no one cares. The reality of it is no one cares just because you care and your friends have said it's such a great idea or your mom makes no difference, someone has to open their wallet. Piece of advice I'd give is don't ask your best mate unless your best mate's Elon Musk and you're building a rocket because he'll tell you as it is. Friends will never want to upset you, they want to keep you going, and family will never upset you.
Nick Robinson:
I remember in the first 500 sales, eight of my friends bought and all were really annoyed going oh, they're so tight. Then I realized actually that was that 452 people I've never met in my life, maybe some of your musician friends in Byron have bought them without meeting me or my kids or my family, that's cool, they've bought the story, they love it, they feel part of our story they have not just bought it, they are it. That's interesting.
Pru Chapman:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So was it quick to take off? You said because that is when the real work begins when you turn on the website and all of a sudden, no one knows the brand. So did sales trickle in or were there any pinnacle growth points?
Nick Robinson:
Yeah, we built a little holding page and announced the idea and people would leave an email address. I remember at launch day I put 2,000 names, I emailed everybody that had been queuing and 60 people bought. I was like, oh, but everyone's been harassing me, and what happened was COVID had hit and the world was in meltdown and everyone was freaking out, and the last thing they wanted was a pair of sunnies. That was hard on our first day, yeah, I think we got 60 sales. I didn't want to launch because I was like, "God, the world doesn't need anymore over-consumption." But my kids sat me down and said, "Dad if we sell a pair, then we pull a kilo of plastic out of the ocean. So today we pulled 60 kilos dad and we recognize it's the size of our bedroom. So don't stop selling them. And dad, if they break they're modular so people can fix the arm or they're never going to throw them away. These sunglasses will be like an heirloom they'll get passed on and on."
Nick Robinson:
It's funny having little kids as business partners because they are so engaged and involved, you just have to stop sometimes and go, they're absolutely right. So yeah, look, sales have been good and it blows my mind every time Shopify goes, ding, it's true. We all have a happy dance because it's another person that believes in our purpose, which is to untrash the planet. I just want to say that through those 752 days, that purpose kept me going and my kids, but that singular why are we doing this? If you're going to have a business, and if anyone's listening to this, don't just start with the logo and the fancy product. Start with what's your real reason, why you're doing this? What are customer is going to buy into? Customers buy into us because of our mission of untrashing the planet. Everything we do is about reversing the damage, not adding to it.
Nick Robinson:
We could have lost the brand at 80% recycled, but then I turned to the kids and said, that means dad's only solved 80% of the problem. We have to solve 100% of the problem hence why our eyewear frames and hinges are 100% recycled. I don't want to be preachy there, but that was our purpose and customers would say, I'm happy if it takes five years because I believe in your purpose, how wonderful is that?
Pru Chapman:
It's incredible. It sounds like your kids were a really important part of this journey as you were traveling along. So when you were in those really early stages at the factory, were the kids tagging along there?
Nick Robinson:
Yeah.
Pru Chapman:
Were they really involved in the process?
Nick Robinson:
Yeah. Look, they were massively involved. And kids ask really simple questions and there's no fluff, there is no nonsense, they just want to know the answer. So yeah, it became on a Saturday morning we would drive up to the factory and we go for trials. That's when the factory could... They worked on the Friday and Saturday morning, so my kids drove up with me for a lot of trips. What was hard for me was I'd get there and I could tell from poor Tom, who's our factory owner, I could tell from his facial expression from 40 meters away that we'd got it or we hadn't. So you can imagine 54 changes, 2,500 failures, and sometimes I'd have to say to the kids, "Do you know what? Maybe you just sit in the car for five minutes while I was going to talk to Tom." Because they'd see my face of doom and gloom.
Nick Robinson:
And one time they cried because they felt like is that it? Are we giving up or is it all broken? Are we not going to save the planet or the animals? So you realize you have to just, they're involved, but there's a point where they also, I'm creating anxiety in their minds and their little worlds because they think I'm saving it. And of course I'm not, you know that, you're an adult, but in their little minds, they're really proud of that.
Nick Robinson:
I remember one day Harry saying to me, on the way to school, he said, "You know what, dad, you've never given up, and most people would have given up but you haven't." Then I just dropped them off at the gate and I thought, wow, what a lesson. All that comes out of this project, he knows you should never give up, never, ever give up trying. I thought that was a wonderful thing he said to me, and it's always stuck with me. So they bring a certain magic and they are damn annoying sometimes as well sometimes. But when you've had an exhausted day, they really want to know what's going on and it's hard to just unwind.
Pru Chapman:
Talk about really bringing in the accountability. Not only having accountability partners in your co-founders, your children, but the fact that they're there every day when you get home to find out how everything went.
Nick Robinson:
Yeah. And we have a weekly whip, so they have a hot chocolate at the café, and those whips have got less now because we have Tom so they are focus on school. But last week they bought their own PlayStation 4, it was a big decision to let them have one because I think they're a bit young, but they said, "Dad, we have earned this money through the business. This is our money and so please drive us or we'll get an Uber to JB Hi-Fi." You're looking at these little kids going, you're getting a bit above your pay grade kids. But I'm sat here now and there's a little PlayStation 4 that they bought, they understand learning the value of money and they bought it. They understand what percentage they got, the sunnies that were sold, and it's going to a PlayStation 4. If that's what they want to spend the money on, they have to learn.
Pru Chapman:
That's incredible, and what a great lesson for the kids as well. Now, I know that throughout the journey, you launched last year and you and I have been chatting a little bit online trying to get you on the podcast and we just danced a little bit before. We finally landed in the right spot at the right time.
Nick Robinson:
Well, you've got a beautiful publication, that's why I wrote you that is amazing. Then I think we struck a conversation because what you do is brilliant. So back to you, fantastic. Yeah.
Pru Chapman:
Thanks, Nick. And that's probably what I was doing with my head deep in trying to figure out how to launch a magazine to be honest. Like you with the sunnies, I had no idea about magazine, so that has been a very steep learning curve. But you've definitely had some big wins in the last year, when I say wins, I just mean you've been written up by Forbes and national geographic. You're not mucking around, you got to the UN conference. These opportunities that are popping up for you, it just must be such a thrill after working so hard for so long and after all those failures and just with the vision keeping you alive.
Nick Robinson:
Yeah. Oh, look, it's definitely a wonderful experiences. I went back to the UK last year to see my parents or the year before think it was, I'm so confused about what year it was. It's my last night and an email went bowling and I thought it was my wife emailing me, and it turned out to be one of the most influential people in the eyewear game in the world, and asked if we could meet in London for a coffee. Which I thought it was a windup and declined it, thinking it was literally a windup. Anyway, fast forward I met them and we ended up in Selfridges. Selfridges management loved the story, the simplicity, and the honesty of the story that they said, "Look, we'd love to give you a window." So I remember that email and this individual who pretty much controls the eyewear industry saying, look, this is insane, you have to say yes. And they covered all the costs, and we were in Selfridges window next to Prada for three months and we're still inside Selfridges.
Nick Robinson:
So yeah, that's strange. And talk about when I accepted the offer in London, all I had in my hand was the 3D printed prototype, we actually hadn't made a pair, they don't know that. Flew back to Sydney and said to my wife, "Oh, by the way, I have accepted a deal where we're going to do this, this, and this, and there's this drained expression, but excited to go, "We have to do this." So that was interesting. Look, recently Tesla invited Harry and I to come and share our story. Just getting the email to say that they think our purpose is so aligned, would we talk to the management team? So Harry and I went in and spoke to them about our business.
Nick Robinson:
It was a weird moment, I finished talking and Harry said, "I've got my own presentation." He wrote an idea to pitch the Tesla and the leadership team was about 70 people maybe. And I just sat there and I lit up, I cried, a tear came down my cheek. I'm like, there's my eight year old son stood up, pitching an idea to the senior leadership team and they were like, "Okay." I said, this has nothing to do with me, I didn't know anything about this. It's just interesting, I'm giving them the confidence that it's okay. I just said to the Tesla team, "How can you not power the next generation of little thinkers?" And you could see them all going good point, okay, it was pretty interesting.
Nick Robinson:
The UN was interesting because we got asked to talk and initially I didn't want to take Harry out of school, but then we raced up to the office and they said, "Why are you taking him out of school in the middle of the day? Is he going to the doctors?" I said, "No, he's speaking at the United Nations." They were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." He came bounding down going, "Oh, great dad, so we are talking at the UN." It's just funny that he answered two questions live on the panel and we're next to some pretty important, impressive business people. But Harry took the first two questions and answered them and I felt incredibly proud and he answered them in his unique little way.
Pru Chapman:
Wow. What an incredible experience for him and for the whole family as well. What do you think it is? Because obviously there's people that have made sunnies before, there's people that have brought vision and purpose, or there's people that have brought recycled. What do you think is so sticky because these are big names, these are big opportunities, what do you think it is that's so sticky about Good Citizens?
Nick Robinson:
I think ultimately, look, it's a really good question, there's just a lot of honesty about what we're doing and a lot of transparency, radical transparency is one of our key things that we stand behind. I think the name Good Citizens, we live on this planet, we're all citizens it doesn't matter what creed, race size, where you're from, what language you speak, you're a citizen of this planet. Ultimately, even if you're a bad-ass gangster, you still want to be loved by your mom and you're a good person in your mom's eyes. So ultimately everybody just wants to be seen as a good person. So I just think that there's no pressure on anyone to buy our product, but by wearing it, you're doing a good thing and you're doing it, I just don't know another word to describe it, but in a kind of a cool way, it's just like, I'm buying that and I could buy... My fight is not with any of the eyewear brand or any of the brand on the planet, my fight is with the plastic that's clogging up the world, that's where my focus is.
Nick Robinson:
I just think that it's an interesting story and we're proving that something can be done and it's okay. Okay, message is good, I can't believe it took a six, a seven year old, and a dad to prove you can actually do something and to do it with integrity. I can't look at my kids in the eye and say, "Oh, by the way, they're not recycled, and by the way, dad lied." It's so silly but they just keep you honest and they always will. Between them, they wrote the values of the business and our business plan is one page, and it's drawn not written. I'm dyslexic so I draw pictures and that's what I've shown to people. We've had investors ring us, venture capital ring us, people in the industry ring us, and I go there a piece of paper, that's it. They go, "Is that it? I go, "If you can't stick to those four values, we can't continue the conversation." And that's from the kids and that's the way it is, business should be simpler not more complicated.
Pru Chapman:
I absolutely agree. There's this wonderful quote that I came across recently that perfection is when you can't take anything else out. Instead of perfect being this game of more that people play like how many more features can I add in? How much more of that can I add in? Perfection is actually where you land on, whether it's a product or a service or a movement, when nothing else can be taken out. That simplicity is what I love about design and about what's going on in the world of business right now.
Nick Robinson:
Yeah, I agree. Look, a lot of people said to us is it's amazing, "So this 600 mil bottle I've just sipped water from or another drink go into bin, but you grab that and turn into these?" "Yep." In Sydney, we'll make that from that to that, and we'll do it in bottle bulk we'll make them. And they're like, it's like this transformation and it's just playing with people's imagination. Everyone says one bottle, one pair is so simple. It's not a bit of this and a bit of that, it's that one bottle. I'd love for fun to melt down some of our rejects and turn them back into bottles, could be a good April Fools. It's that we can do that, there's nothing else in it, that's it, that's the simplicity of it. And that's what's kind of it's really hard to make things simple.
Pru Chapman:
I think you just found your second product right there, Nick.
Nick Robinson:
Bottles [inaudible 00:30:06] plastic bottles.
Pru Chapman:
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Pru Chapman:
Now, I did want to jump in and talk a little bit into this integrity and transparency that you talk about because I love that about Good Citizens. I think you land on your website, there's a beautiful video of you and your kids there talking about what the product is and why you make it, and the really pure vision that you have and the pure why that you have to doing it as well. It feels very transparent. This piece of integrity, I should say, just comes out incredibly strongly. One of the things that jumped at me straight away was that you have a really localized manufacturing process, which is quite unusual here in Australia. So why did you decide to do it here instead of offshoring it like most well, a lot of product based businesses do?
Nick Robinson:
Because I sat down with the kids in the kitchen and got a bit of paper, we wrote down the business plan and they said, "Where are we going to make it?" I said, "Well." They said, "Dad, you got to make it way near close to school because we want to come in after my classes." So I set about finding a factory that was within 45 minutes of the school, but where we live in Sydney. That was kind of, yeah, okay that'd be fun. Then I started to research, like I'm sure everybody does, they go on Alibaba and they talk to this, and then before they know it they chat with a factory owner and there's interpreters. I just felt something in my gut went no. I remember ringing up his factory and saying, "Can you make these glasses?" "Yes, we've made them before." I'm going, "I can't find any in the world like this." "Oh, we've done it, don't worry, we'll make it."
Nick Robinson:
And I realized that unless I can physically see it with my own eyes and shake the hand of every worker and talk to them and build comradery, sorry, I'm totally dyslexic, comradery, a friendship with these workers and make them really believe in what we're doing, it's not going to work because it's too hard. I can't wait for samples to be made, shipped across three months in another country with language disabilities. As I said, I'm dyslexic and I'm not very good at writing emails and I make up words, so it would really confuse everybody. So we decided to do it in Sydney where we can actually turn up in the car and workshop problems and work together. That's how it worked and I thought also, why not give jobs to local people and why not inspire people to show that we can actually make something in Australia? Why do we always have to go down to those traditional routes of offshoring everything?
Nick Robinson:
There's something quite beautiful about turning up and seeing the face of the factory owner and his team, the gang of lads and ladies, and they go, "We nailed it." They have taken the challenge and I'm very, very thankful for their efforts and input, Tom and his team. One of the workers sent that film that you're talking about to his mom and his mom's like, "God, you really work in an amazing place because these guys don't just make our product and make all sorts of products, but our product and they're helping the world in our own little way." That's why I wanted to work with local people and yeah, that's why we kept it local.
Pru Chapman:
I love that. Yeah, this really tangible, I think we're all coming back to something really tangible and appreciating it as well. So small business staying small. I love that you say that it just gives me such a beautiful visual of walking into the factory and seeing the joy on the factory workers faces. I'm sitting here recording this in the back of my camper van at the moment, and I was sitting right next to my surfboard, which is a McTavish board. When I bought it, I remember my dad, he was like, "Ah, you're crazy, they're so expensive those boards. You could have got one cheaper." I said, "Yeah, but dad, I walk in, it's a local business. They're employing local guys and I'm supporting it."
Pru Chapman:
I bought it in COVID it's like this is the power that we have to choose with our money, where it goes and who we support and what we support. It's such a powerful act and we might spend a few more bucks, we might not sometimes as well. But just that we have so much choice in how our money circulates and the kind of future that we want to create with it. I think we just all need to really connect to that and how many opportunities we have for that on a big and small scale.
Nick Robinson:
Yeah. Look, I agree. What's really funny is a few customers have actually begged to come in and see how it's all made, and I've let a few of them come in then they've said can I buy a pair? I then look at them and say, "Only if you make your own." And they go, and they make their own. So talk about will they ever lose that pair of sunglasses? No. I think back to your friends wearing our sunnies, they feel almost part of the story because they're a citizen. I ring up, no joke, about 10 citizens a week just to have a chat, and they like, "Oh, are you the guy that makes the glasses?" "Yeah, we made your glasses, I just wanted to say hello and see if there's any problems and get some feedback." A lot can't believe you're ringing us. I said, look, we have a tiny business we are never on special, but I just wants to connect and say, thank you and how are you going?
Nick Robinson:
I think if you own a business, don't be afraid of customers because I'd rather know the problem. You're not going to hear it from your best mate, you need to hear it from people that don't know you, you need to hear where you're missing things. Someone said to us the day, I love your brand because of your good old fashioned customer service. I know as we scale, that's going to be more challenging with me talking to people. But I think that I don't even want social media on our website and everyone goes, "Oh, you're so old Nick." But I'm like, "Why do I have to do that?" I don't put any effort sadly into any social media, my wife has taken control of the accounts. I know it is an important part to get out to people, and maybe I'm being a bit narrow monitored. Of course we'll keep doing social, but people just don't connect anymore, it's Australian,
Nick Robinson:
So the 10 people I speak to, I make a little note in Shopify and I just want to check in with them and I love that. That's how you can grow a brand because I couldn't do it without those people buying. As we're talking now, I can see sales coming in. This is a great moment getting interviewed by you and I'm untrashing the planet, this is brilliant. It's so simple but it's brilliant. It's so simple, but the kids will get in tonight and the first thing they do is go to my phone and they go, "Oh, let's look at sales." It's just really funny, it's like get away, get off that phone.
Pru Chapman:
I think it's very, very cool. Actually on that note, is it true that you've been responsible really for removing, is it 55,000 plastic bottles from the ocean?
Nick Robinson:
No. Well, yes, we've actually done more. So current stats are, as of last week, we've prevented 12,000 bottles getting into the ocean because we've used those to make our sunnies. And for every pair we sell, we fund the removal of a kilo of plastic. I think before Christmas, this was before all the Christmas orders, we'd pulled out 2.1 tons of plastic. That doesn't sound a lot, but we're only very young and a lot of microplastic takes up like a lot of plastic. If you got a 600 mil bottle and filled it full of microplastics, that's about 200 grams. So we do put that... That feels great, and we worked out with a piece of software.
Nick Robinson:
We have been in Forbes, and that was very humbling and Channel 7 last week run a national story on us. So part of our mission is to fight for recycling and raising awareness. Maybe 30 million people have seen our stories, talked about it, written to us. It's a lovely story, Harry really wanted to give a pair to Sir David Attenborough, so he wrote to Sir David Attenborough and he wrote back within a week to Harry. That's not public, really is now, but we don't show the letter, it's in a little shoe box and he really enjoyed the projects, and we just wrote back saying, this is because of you because you've inspired Harry. I know that other people have set up businesses because they've seen us having a go. Some of these businesses will probably have a lot more impact than the numbers I'm talking about, but we've inspired them and I get inspired by other people.
Nick Robinson:
So I think that yeah, we've got some nice stats, but just seeing someone walk down the street... Some poor lady the other day my wife said was walking down the street wearing our glasses and literally the kids just surrounded to go they're our glasses. She was on a phone call she said, "I've got headphones in." They go "But they're our glasses." You've got these two little kids they're our glasses, we made that and she's going, "Who are you?" My wife had to catch up to them going, "I'm sorry, the kids it's a business of them." She just said, "I've got to hang up." She hung up on a friend or whoever she was on the phone to start talking to the kids then. They're the magic moments that's the one that we can judge whether we're successful or not.
Pru Chapman:
There's so many things that I want to add to that. I think what you're speaking to here, it is the thing that gets me giddy, which is using business as a force for good. Sometimes I think I'm maybe a little bit too much of an idealist where I so confidently say business is what's going to change the world. Charities are bound up by red tape and government is slow to move and business it can be so fast and it can be so nimble and it can be so agile and so purpose driven that I can just see it's emulating through your family and through your children through the next generation to the story that they passed on to that woman in the street who's now going to tell her friends about it and then they buy glasses.
Pru Chapman:
In terms of evolution, we've very quickly got gotten ourselves in a big pickle in the past few years, and I'm talking in the past really probably 30 to 50 years. I think business is the fastest way out of it. If we can be really closing the loop on a lot of things and actually, as you say, not only just minimizing trash on the planet, but then funding the removal of trash from the planet so we are untrashing the planet. It's so exciting what we're capable of if we've got that vision and that why that you and your family clearly does to actually roll up your sleeves and do something about it.
Nick Robinson:
Yeah, the kind of thing every business can play a part. It's funny now that I've had business owners write to me saying, "Oh, we've been doing this with our business but we saw your story and so now what we've done is we've got a little policy for our recycling." This one company was throwing away skip bin every week of plastic, the head of procurement rang me, she almost cried. She said, "I've seen that little film that you're talking about." And she said, "I realized that we sent 52 bins, dumpster bins to landfill and that's now stopping Nick." I was like, "Right, can I have that plastic to make glasses?" So we are actually discussing in the moment how we're going to use that stuff.
Nick Robinson:
So every business can play a part, you don't actually have to have your businesses purpose driven to actually make a product or anything, but you can just have a business but just bring some ethics to what you do. It's the year 2021, it's going to take everybody to do this. I tell you, it feels good. Money's a dirty word, but if I make a ton of cash but don't make any change or impact, I've failed. If I make a ton of impact that I've got no money and I'm broke at the end of this idea, I've failed. The two should live together because then people are more inclined to go for this. There's always cynics who will say, yeah, you've done well, Mike, but you got no money, look at you you're wearing the same trainers and blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, no, don't flaunt your wealth, but you can show that there is a business model to do good and make money, make impact.
Nick Robinson:
My ultimate aim, I've got an ultimate aim, I'd like to help more people like us to do what we're doing and not have to go through all the hassles that we had to go through and the wasted energy of chasing this and that. I'd love to have a business that actually funds and helps the next generation of little thinkers.
Pru Chapman:
[crosstalk 00:43:58] very exciting
Nick Robinson:
Because they're the people are going to be taken on what we've left behind.
Pru Chapman:
I just have a different way of thinking as well. I think our world is so hyper-connected these days and for a lot of us we don't love it in terms of social media, particularly our generation, but for those little thinkers, they're hyper-connected. So their visions and their goals and their ambition is quite global as well. They don't have the boundaries or the barriers that maybe we used to have that we still somehow see as limitations. That just doesn't exist in them, they really do view themselves as a global citizen.
Nick Robinson:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. I remember growing up as a kid and I'd play in the field and I'd know dinner was ready when my mom would ring a bell. I'd be two K away and I'd hear the bell and come back. Nowadays is 17 texts sent out to the kid, dinner's in an hour, dinner's in 15 minutes, we're cooking this, oh, this is happening, dad's on a conference call and it's like oh, this is too much. That's me being old and futty duty again.
Pru Chapman:
Well, you've given us a hint of it there and what is the big vision then for Good Citizens? Where do you want to take it? Where could you see it going if you were dreaming wildly as all good entrepreneurs do?
Nick Robinson:
Oh, I'd love to see everybody on the planet wearing a pair of our sunglasses. And if I could get to a certain figure, I know that we'd actually reverse all the damage done. It's a really good question, it's a big question. It's funny, we're talking to the government at the moment and we're helping them and they're helping us and all of a sudden we're starting to collaborate and I'm like, "okay, I didn't think that would happen." I don't know what the big... It's a really difficult question to answer because if I wrote down what I think was going to happen on a Monday morning, by Friday, when I really looked at that list, so much has happened and so many more things have happened or not happened, it's a really difficult one. But I would hope that the world is...
Nick Robinson:
Sweden's way ahead of us, I think not even 1% of their stuff goes to landfill. I just think there's an education process. Don't ever guilt anyone into this but it just becomes the norm that we do the right thing. If we can play our part in it just becoming the norm, then that's a nice legacy. And to be the most sustainable sunglasses eyewear brand on the planet would be another good one. Yeah, this plans all sorts of exciting things to happen with the brand. As I said, we never set out just to make eyewear.
Pru Chapman:
Wow, that does sound super exciting. I think something that is just worthy of mentioning here as well is the power of good business absolutely. For that to be our first stepping stone that this becomes the norm that business does good, and that's very much part of my big vision picture thinking and a big part of why I do this podcast as well. I think Patagonia is just a company that I love and adore and Yvon Chouinard, he set out making petons and it was this one simple product that he didn't necessarily have the vision of what Patagonia is today. But just by following his gut, by taking those big brave leaps, and by doing what was the right thing to do has built this incredible brand that we know now.
Pru Chapman:
Recently I was talking to Dana Shennessey, who's the managing director here in Australia, he's an incredible guy. We kicked off that interview by just talking about this old school way of thinking that financial reward and doing the right thing have to be mutually exclusive. It's just been disproven, it is not the way of business anymore, and there is some incredible stats coming out at the moment from some of the big houses like Deloitte who are saying there is, I think it's around 60% of the, what's the latest generation? Gen Z I think it is, but 60% of them not only do they support brands, significantly more support brands who have values aligned, but they're also, 60% of them are willing to pay more for it as well.
Pru Chapman:
So it goes even beyond that neutral ground and says, if you're doing the right thing and you're talking about it and your messaging is really clear, you will absolutely seek those financial rewards. A really interesting thing, a few years ago, I used to coach, he was also a managing director of a different surf wear brand. So I was very in the industry, had been in it for a long time, knew all the numbers. I remember him saying to me, one day, he said, "No one can catch Patagonia's growth." Patagonia are just growth on growth on growth so, much that they cap their growth and just no one in the surf industry can catch them. It really does make me so excited for what's ahead for all of us, for the planet, for business, for entrepreneurs, for our kids as well, is that this old school way of thinking of this mutual exclusivity it's dead in the water. It's an old-
Nick Robinson:
Yeah, I agree. And based on that, I will say just to add to it that Deloitte is doing those kinds of surveys. I get sent these kinds of things, and I'm very grateful for them. But the one thing I'll say is no one buys a crap looking product, they just don't. So those people at the 60% they'll buy it if it looks cool, it does what it says it's going to do, and is better than what it says it can do, and it's just great and fits with our life. Gone are the days of buying a charity t-shirt and it just isn't cut right and the fabric's wrong, but just because it had a message on it. People now want... It's becoming more and more of a given.
Nick Robinson:
Yes, if anyone is thinking of setting the business and doing the right thing, just also you got to make products that are appealing to people. And I would hope that our eyewear brand is appealing, looks wise, and then they find out, oh, God, it's made from trash, oh God, how cool. That's then the aha moment. But they're only going to buy it if they love it and fits well. It took us 19 months to get the fit right but we've nailed it, I'm confident in that. So it's got to fit, it's got to look good, it's got to be the thing that's got a sex appeal.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah, absolutely. Recently I interviewed the guys who started Offense, great guys. They're really pioneering the hemp revolution here in Australia. A lot of us when we think about hemp, particularly I grew up in the country in the '80s and '90s, and if you went into a hemp store, hemp clothing, it was heavy and it was daggy, and your mum wouldn't wear it, it was awful. It was beige or very earthy colored, it was not done well. Offense has got to be one of the coolest brands kicking around right now and they're making their stuff out of hemp. It is beautiful, it is cool, both cool to look at and cool to wear as well, the material phenomenal. They're just doing such a brilliant job of exactly what you're saying there is making an excellent product as number one. Then it is backed up by all the wonderful work they're doing in the sustainability and good business space.
Pru Chapman:
So I 100% agree with you there and I think that's really where businesses should be focusing first. Instead of being altruistic and not focusing on the product, you really do need to focus on the product. Another thing that I wanted to add in there because it's something you've mentioned a few times, which is social media and I think it's incredible actually that Good Citizens, just that it's just that it's not your main focus because I think social media channels are blown out of proportion in terms of the way that people view them as assets in their business. Because at any given moment [inaudible 00:51:44] all over and here you are getting shop front Selfridges, you're speaking with the UN, talking with Tesla, there's so many incredible things here without this huge focus on Instagram. I think it's such a distraction from the really important work that we can be doing.
Pru Chapman:
And the one thing, because I know we've got so many business owners that listen to this podcast, so the one thing that I did want to mention here because I'm really passionate about us all being a little bit more mindful about how we use the tool of social media, is that Seth Goden, who is arguably one of the best marketers in the world, definitely one of the best known, has multiple books, is very revered in the marketing space, he actually doesn't have much social media. I think that's just really something to take away from that, that the marketing guru of our age or a very significant one of them out there is not using social media as a key marketing tool. What he does is he has a blog and he writes on his blog every day and he offers incredible content, he offers incredible value.
Pru Chapman:
Coming back to what you were saying with customer service, you're offering a really personalized customer service. In my business, we love our people and our members and we love them hard. We know their names, their family's names, their kids names. So I think it's worthy just as we're riffing on this mentioning that because we do have so many business owners, is just that social media is not the be-all and end-all of-
Nick Robinson:
Oh, look, it frustrates the hell out me. It's funny and it's hard because maybe I'm guilty, when I get brands going, "Can we partner with you?" The first thing I do is I go and look at their socials to see what following they've got. So I'm guilty of it too. But then very quickly the next thing I'll look at, and it's the most important thing, is I'll say can you send me about where on your website you talk about the ethics and the background of your business because a lot of people will go, oh, designed in Australia and then nothing. So zero, nothing else, and that's the alarm bells for me.
Nick Robinson:
But don't spend too much time on your socials. I literally put one poster if I remember and the rest of the time I'm focusing on other things in the business. But I do notice social is important to spread the message because that's the channel that my customers are using. But no one's giving me grief, no one's judging me. I don't even know, I'd have to get my phone and tell you. My wife, just before I came onto this at all, have you responded to any of the Facebook quotes from the weekend? It was 43 comments of which I didn't even read, I haven't read them. It's not because I'm rude, it's just because I'm prioritizing on other things that I know are going to make impact this week to get us to next week and the week after and the year after. But I've used social in previous roles and jobs and it's great. But then don't think you're a failure because you've got 200 followers, focus on the thing that matters and matters to the 200 customers would be my advice.
Pru Chapman:
And focus more on making your product phenomenal than how many followers you've got, make the product or the service come first. If you make the thing that you were put here to make, if you make fantastic quality product or service, people are going to talk about it and that's the way that people buy, is really through word of mouth, it's through someone talks to media. We are humans that connect with humans not social media channels. I know that they are an important channel and businesses are on them, but there's just so many more aspects to running a successful business. So yeah, I think that's really just a warranted discussion to have.
Nick Robinson:
I agree. Get your product right and make sure you spend the time to focus on that or your service because you might not be a product, and make it something that connects with people that people want. Look, the basics are, and this is what I said, the first question I wrote down with the kids nearly 800 or 900 days ago is what problem do we solve? They were like, "What do you mean?" I said, "If we're going to move forward to the next day and the next day and the next day, what is the problem we're trying to solve?"
Nick Robinson:
Our problem we were solving is how do we try and turn this single use plastic that's making its way to the ocean or landfill, how do we grab it before it goes somewhere, turn it into something that then someone just looks at and goes, "Wow?" That's the problem we're solving. I think that's the biggest thing, don't solve the problem of Instagram or Facebook or Snapchat or tweets. They've all got their relevant place, they really have and they can really, really amplify a message and your positioning and your brand and your story and your product and your service, but make sure you've got that sorted versus just filling it with more pixel trash.
Pru Chapman:
I agree. Now, Nick, I feel like you and I could sit here all day and banter and maybe there will be a follow-up interview for that. But what I'd actually love to know because you're quite close right now to your startup journey, so I would love to hear whether it is looking back and giving yourself some advice, so the Nick that was starting out at the beginning of those 752 days. Offer any other early stage businesses who have got big vision and got a mission and got that real why to them, any advice that you'd give, like I said, either to yourself or to them?
Nick Robinson:
Yeah. Trust your gut because there's been four, I've cried four times, nearly cried for a fifth time yesterday, it was one of the worst days yesterday for various reasons. Sometimes it could just maybe not be a bad day, but my energy was down and I was just tired. But trust your gut, it doesn't matter if it's an expert stood in front of you or sat in front of you telling you something. If you believe or you've got a hunch that something doesn't feel right, trust it. because that's the most important thing because you're the one that's ultimately carrying this forward. So you got to trust it and trust your gut.
Nick Robinson:
I'd find someone who you can talk to because I have my two kids, my wife, but they also don't want to hear my problems, so find someone. I wish I'd found someone earlier just to talk to because I've spent most of the last three years exhausted. I went to the doctors and the doctor said to me, "You are dangerously low on vitamin D." Which is ironic because I worked with a brand in the sun. But for the last three years, I've sat in an office and we have a very small window downstairs in the workshop. I've sat in that workshop with sheets of paper and my computer and prototypes and making glasses and I didn't see sunlight for days. Actually I'm now back up, I'm dosed up, and the doctor's happy. But how I run into that, I let my health go, so look after yourself and give yourself a break and you need to do that. Yeah, I would just say to myself give myself a bit more Slack.
Nick Robinson:
But when you do something like this, you're just so passionate that you can't help but get involved in all the problems and feel them, really feel that worry because it's that worry that eventually drives you forward. If you weren't close to the edge of the breakthrough or close to the edge of something disastrous happening, you're never going to break through it and get it to the next level. I've had so many days, I've cried four times but been close to really throwing in the towel a lot more. But then after about a minute, I just dust myself off because I've got that really clear purpose, untrashed the planet. It's not going to get untrashed unless I... I'm not going to save the planet, we know that, but maybe I can play my little part. So I'm just looking after my neck of the woods.
Pru Chapman:
I think that's Sage advised us here, is really trust your gut and take care of yourself because the early stage they are a roller coaster, they are an absolute ride. I sometimes just liken it to dating someone as well, you're in the honeymoon phase. So you really are feeling all the feels and coming from now, as myself I'm a very a seasoned business owner, is you're never going to get those startup years back like those dating years as well, you don't go back to them. So it's enjoy the highs and really know that the lows trust your gut and trust in a higher purpose, that if this thing is meant to work out for you then it will.
Nick Robinson:
That's how it looks a big part of it, but if you can just stay in business another day, you never know what's going to happen tomorrow. I didn't know the day before we got a call to say can you speak at the UN tomorrow for that wasn't in my agenda, that wasn't in my diary, but it's because I kept the business going for that day and the next day. Just live it day to day and don't stress about all this advice, all these experts have given you because you know what? They haven't done what you're doing, they've not stood in your shoes, and they're not taking the risk, they're seeing it from their perspective. So listen to it, process it, but if your gut says, no, don't go.
Pru Chapman:
Love it, love it. All right. Final piece of advice, I'm going to ask, and I do feel like you're an expert on this Nick, is advice for anyone who wants to work with their kids.
Nick Robinson:
Don't. Look, I think it takes, I don't know, maybe I'm a half kid at nature. Look, without getting too deep, it has been challenging because I'm a dad and I'm also a business partner and I also don't want to stress them and I want them to go to school and do their thing. Kids have been teased a little bit or she's really sad by some kids at school, that's what I found really hard because they're just having fun with us in the workshop and they'll talk about it. Just be mindful that they are little people and whilst most adults can process lots of information, they haven't had the experience and haven't got the brain capacity that we've got. So get them involved, engage them. Literally through COVID, my kids learnt how to run an online business and dispatch and a manufacturing business. But I kept it fun and light.
Nick Robinson:
So yeah, get them involved. This is literally a project that's just got wildly out of control, that's how the kids look at it. But yet kids are great, they keep you honest and they ask really, really simple questions. But don't put the pressure on them that it relies on them for it to work because that's my job, that's the adult's job.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome, Nick. All right. Well, I'm going to wrap this up with our One Wild Ride rapid fire questions, are you ready?
Nick Robinson:
I am.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome. Tea or coffee?
Nick Robinson:
Coffee.
Pru Chapman:
Excellent, I didn't expect that from an Englishman. Fate or freewill?
Nick Robinson:
Both, 50/50.
Pru Chapman:
Loving it. Do you have any kick-ass daily habits in place?
Nick Robinson:
Oh, God. Write a journal because you'll forget. I write a journal every day because the kids said to me, "Hey dad, we might write a book one day." More difficult because dad's dyslexic. But yeah, I keep a journal every day because you forget the lows and the highs. So I write a journal, that's my daily habit.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome. Now this is a little bit of a hypothetical question at the moment, but I'm asking it anyway because I love hearing. If you could jump on a plane tomorrow and go anywhere in the world with anyone, where would you go and who would you go with?
Nick Robinson:
The practical answer and the dream answer, practical, take the kids and Joss back to the UK to see my parents because we're feeling very isolated from COVID. The fun answer I'd ring up Richard Branson, he'd fly me on his plane back to his Island and for three days. Him and I would sit in Hammocks and I'd let him just instill his advice and stories and fun. The thing about, Sir Richard Branson that like, might be a cliche, but I just think he's braved a lot of storms and really put himself out there.
Pru Chapman:
Incredible. Final question for you, Nick, who else would you like to see me interview on the podcast?
Nick Robinson:
Oh, gosh. There's a friend of mine that I've got to know through business school, Sam Davey, he runs Parks Social Soccer. He's the former global creative director of Apple, he learned a great deal from Steve jobs. He's he's a mind, he's a designer, he set beautiful brand where he passes the ball to another kid in need, and I really admire him for giving up what was obviously one of the best careers in the world to focus on this in Melbourne. So yeah, Sam Davey, give him a call.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome. All right, Sam, if you're listening, let's get in touch. Nick, thank you so much for your time today. I've absolutely loved this interview and you'll see me soon no doubt rocking around in Sydney with my Good Citizen.
Nick Robinson:
Well, I will be coming up to your neck of the woods as well.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome.
Nick Robinson:
So I will pop in and if your Van's parked where you say it is as you're renovating your home, I shall come and knock on the side.
Pru Chapman:
Please do, please do. We'll show you all the awesome spots of paradise up here. Nick, thanks so much.
Nick Robinson:
Thank you.
Pru Chapman:
As we wrap, I want to say a huge thank you to Costa Ray for the tunes, Animal Ventura, for recording and production, the people of the Bundjalung nation from the country where this podcast is produced, and to you our incredible listeners. As always, the conversation continues over on Instagram, so be sure to be following along over at onewildride_. So join me over there now and subscribe to find our next episode live here next week.