Company of One | Paul Jarvis
Conversation with Paul Jarvis
Paul Jarvis is a writer and designer who’s had his own company of one for the last two decades. His latest book, Company of One, explores why bigger isn’t always better in business. He’s worked with professional athletes like Steve Nash and Shaquille O’Neal, corporate giants like Microsoft and Mercedes-Benz, and entrepreneurs with online empires like Danielle LaPorte and Marie Forleo.
“I think the reason why most of us start businesses in the first place is because we want to be in control of what we hold as valuable in our lives, right? ”
Paul Jarvis is a writer, designer, and currently teaches popular online courses, hosts several podcasts and develops small but mighty software solutions.
To say that his book Company of One is a refreshing approach to business is an understatement. Contrary to the game of ‘more is better’ that we’ve been fed about business for years, this book by Paul Jarvis encourages us to question growth for growth’s sake.
For far too long the narrative of business ebing that we need more revenue, more profit, more staff, more products has gone unquestioned. And we’ve failed to give enough attention given to whether growth is actually the right thing for our specific business, for the planet, and for our overall happiness.
Paul explains that by staying small, we can actually have the freedom to pursue more - a more meaningful life, one that looks both inside and outside of business.
So settle into a comfy spot and enjoy this podcast - it’s about keeping things simple and living a more rounded and joyful life.
Mentioned in conversation…
Paul’s journey to becoming a Company of One and the advantages of staying small and nimble
Paul explains how for many businesses there comes a point where they have enough, and then we have to questions whether the growth is really serving them
He discusses how to get clear on the lifestyle that you want, and then what we need to do to make decisions that support that vision.
We touch on this unique time of COVID and how this impacts our businesses
Paul talks about how he personally keeps things simple, his metrics for success and feeling good
Find our more on the Company of One here:
Company of One Podcast
Company of One Book
For a bit of extra reading:
Why becoming a company of one is the new black
Paul Jarvis on making your business better, not bigger
Full Podcast Transcript - Paul Jarvis, Company of One
Pru Chapman:
Hey Paul, welcome to the show.
Paul Jarvis:
Thank you so much for having me on today.
Pru Chapman:
Oh, my absolute pleasure. I am so excited that you're here. Because as I just mentioned to you, I stumbled across your book. I can't remember how it came into my being, but I read it once and as I was reading it, it was literally as though you were solidifying everything I've ever thought about business into this book. I absolutely adored it. The examples that you use, the fact that you lived in Tofino, which is one of my favorite places on earth. I got to the end, I basically told everyone I knew or would know about your book. Then I started it again. I just read it a second time, and now I'm even going back to it and just enjoying the snippets of little pieces.
Pru Chapman:
The really big message that came out for me, where I landed on, was just this focus on being better rather than bigger. Having that focus on being better and diving deep with your customers, and not falling blindly into the society's way of bigger is better and more and more and more, this game of more that we seem to be playing. I thought maybe to kick us off, instead of me doing all the talking here, you could give our listeners a little bit of overview of the concept of Company of One.
Paul Jarvis:
Sure. Well, I'm glad we turned our video off because I'm blushing after all those nice things you said. Thank you very much.
Pru Chapman:
You did good.
Paul Jarvis:
The of Company of One isn't meant to... I guess I'll start with this, it's not really meant to be literal. Just like Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek, nowhere in it does he say you work four hours and then stop. It's more of a mindset like you were saying, where basically the idea is that growth is great, but it needs to be questioned. If we just keep working to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, that is probably really good, especially in the beginning, right? Because if you start with zero revenue and zero customers and zero anything, you need to grow to make the business into a business. In the beginning, growth absolutely makes sense and it makes sense to grow. But there comes a point where maybe that growth doesn't make sense, and that's what the book explores. Company of One is more an idea that we should start with the smallest version possible, see what works, what doesn't, iterate, and then grow if needed and question it at every step.
Pru Chapman:
Oh yes. Perfect. I love that you've pointed that out actually right from the start, because in the early stages, you do need to grow. You do need to be bigger. You do need to get that revenue coming in. Yvon Chouinard, who I just adore in business, he talks a lot about sustainability of business and how to be a good business. The first step to becoming a sustainable business is being a profitable business as well, because then you can do all the other stuff. I think that's a really important message for everyone to get that it's not designed to be taken completely literally because you didn't have to grow in those early stages. But then getting to that point where you do start to question, and I think that's the key point, isn't it? Having the questioning point about what's serving you in the growth.
Paul Jarvis:
Exactly. I'm a huge fan of Yvon Chouinard as well. It's funny because we're recording this on earth day, and every time it's earth day I think about the type of business that he's built with Patagonia. I want more of these businesses to exist because I think it's really well done. It's funny, my editor actually took out a whole bunch of parts of me talking about Yvon Chouinard and Patagonia from the book because he's like, "He's already written a bunch of books on his story, so you don't need to tell his story again." That's funny.
Pru Chapman:
We can all fan on him. I think it's totally okay. I talk about him a lot on this podcast. Yeah, having this notion that it's good to grow in the initial stages, but then you really need to start questioning. Something that you dive into as well is just this societal... I don't know, I guess it's become the expectation that to be bigger is going to be better, but also that it's easier to solve problems when you throw more things at them; throwing more time, more money, more people. Can you talk us a little bit through that?
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah, that's typically the way that it goes if growth is left unchecked. A good example of that is if you run a business and you have to do support, whether it's technical support, customer service, whatever it is, and you start to get inundated with that, you typically say, "Okay, I need to hire a dedicated support person." Or if you have a support team and they're getting swamped, then you think, "Okay, well, I'll just keep hiring more and more people." That can definitely work, but it isn't always the best solution. Solving for ease is different than solving for smart, I think. If we look at the that example again of support, maybe there are things that you can do in your business where things can be better instead of bigger, right? You can think, "Okay, when I'm bringing a new client or customer to what I do..." onboarding, typically, is what it's called, especially in my line of work in tech, "then maybe there are opportunities for there to be teaching moments where the person would be less likely to contact support."
Paul Jarvis:
Whether it's a knowledge base of articles, or video tutorials, or anything like that where things can be done in a way that your business could then scale a bit in terms of customers or revenue, but you don't have to keep adding more and more support staff. It's good to obviously have support staff and for them to be good at what they do. And I think a lot of support staff are undervalued in terms of what they bring to the business, and they're at the frontline, and they're who people see.
Paul Jarvis:
But I do think that we do need to think about those things. In that example, thinking about, "Okay, what can be automated? What can be done so I do the thing once and it may take a bit longer to do it, maybe slightly harder than the easy route, but it can be done and then used over and over again? If I have a video film showing somebody how to use the thing that I sell, then that can be used over and over again. Maybe that's part of an email that people get when they sign up for the thing that I sell."Just thinking about things like that and making sure that the growth makes sense, and if it does, it's the smartest course of action.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah, absolutely. I think possibly business owners, and I work with a lot of business owners every week, is that we become a victim of the pace of business. Maybe the pace of life as well in that unless we actually stop and take a breath and take the time to review those systems, I think having support there is a really great example of that. Because it can be when we are on this like, "It is the treadmill, it is the fast pace of life." It can be easy to just throw more dollars at it, throw more people at it, but just this stopping and taking a breath and tidying things up a little bit just to make some more conscious decisions around how we want to operate in business.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah, and I think that that last thing you just said is probably the most important thing. How do we want to operate in business? I think if we think, "Okay. Well, there's one way to do business, there's one way to succeed. If I'm doing well, then there's only one option," which a lot of people think is growth because that's what we're fed from media and from typical business books and that sort of thing. But if we stop and think about it like you said, then maybe that isn't what we want. I think the reason why most of us start businesses in the first place is because we want to be in control of what we hold as valuable in our lives, right? So if all we do is try to do things that other people have told us to do and use this kind of blueprint for success, then at best we're going to end up with somebody else's life or somebody else's business life. At worst, we're going to try to achieve something we didn't actually want to achieve in the first place and then failed at.
Paul Jarvis:
It's a bit of a mind boggle for me. I think when we are the person running our own business, then we should be in charge of how we want to spend a day. I think the easiest way to boil that whole thing down is, "How do I want to spend my day working on my business?" That can lead to a lot of, I guess, ways to answer questions that come up in our work.
Pru Chapman:
Absolutely. Something that you really land on that I totally agree with is about getting clear on your life, on the life that you want to live. That involves recognizing what you value. I totally agree. I think it's freedom. Do we value traveling? Do we value spending time in the garden, spending with our family? If you start with that as the beacon of the kind of life that I want to live, and then, I guess, work the business around that to support that life rather than the flip side of it.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. It just seems like we should be more in control. I think it's an illusion that we're not. I think we can be when we start to make those decisions that you're talking about, where maybe it is that we work less hours and possibly make less money but are happier or have more balance, whatever balance is, kind of thing. I think that if we start to think about that... if we start to think, "Okay, if this is what's a decision in my business and I'm at a fork in the road, which is actually better for me, for my business, for the customers that I already have for, for all of these things that matter to me?" You could end up with a business that doesn't look the same as somebody else's, or doesn't look the same as what "success." I'm doing air quotes but nobody can see me. [crosstalk 00:10:32].
Pru Chapman:
We can fill them, Paul. We can fill them.
Paul Jarvis:
Thank you. I think it doesn't have to be that cast or model of, "This is what success is." The most successful people I know wouldn't be on the cover of a Fortune magazine, right? It's just like I could never work in Silicon Valley. If I work more than four or five hours I'm tired. I don't want to keep working. That hamster wheel of venture capital just doesn't align with the type of business that I personally want, so it's not something that I ever want to get involved in.
Pru Chapman:
What I love about this is I think our traditional way of thinking about business has been really two dimensional. We got swept up in the globalization, and bigger, and all of these things. And it was like the metrics of success were really narrow. It is essentially about how much revenue do you make? How big is your team? But it's really two dimensional, and I think particularly in the time that we're finding ourselves in as a society right now in this pandemic, there's this opportunity for choosing different metrics of success. So, "Okay, cool. I want to work in my business and I want to do meaningful work, but then what are my other metrics of success?" And starting to build out more three dimensional view of success in life.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. It's difficult, right? Because it involves some introspection and I think that-
Pru Chapman:
And thinking. Independent thinking.
Paul Jarvis:
Exactly. And those aren't things that are taught in school. I don't know why. It's frustrating that they're not, just emotional intelligence isn't taught in school. I don't know why, but it really should be. Those sorts of things. I think a lot of people can struggle with those things a little bit, and thinking about, "Okay, well, what is it that I actually really want?" Because it's not something that we learn, or that we're taught, or that we're told is something that we should do. I mean, I'll just say it, a lot of business rules have been set out by alpha type males, and it doesn't work for a lot of people.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah. It's so interesting because I live here in Byron Bay, and it's this beautiful little experiment that's happening. There are so many women here who they're mothers and they're really hands on with their kids, but they are also building these absolute global empires out of this seaside town. They all knock off at four o'clock. They all go to the bay. They're working two or three days a week with team to support them. But again, they're just redefining what a successful business can, and dare I say, should look like. And it doesn't have to be that two dimensional, like you said, alpha white, middle aged men sitting somewhere in Silicon Valley. You can make all the money, and you can have the lifestyle as well, and you can spend time with your family. If you're prepared to stop, to pause, like you said, to get a bit introspective and also to have an increased level of self awareness about what you want and be prepared to stand up against some of those stereotypes, then it's totally possible another way.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. I think it's been a derogatory thing saying, "Oh, it's just a lifestyle business. It's not a real business." I think that's what a lot of people who have businesses like ours and possibly some of your listeners have heard is, "Well, if you're not growing or you're not seeking the next round of funding or 10x'ing your staff, then it's a 'lifestyle' business." I actually think that every single business is a lifestyle business. I think that whatever business we decide to have and whatever way we decide to run it impacts... just like you said, it impacts our lifestyle.
Paul Jarvis:
I want to have a business that supports my life, and not a life that supports my business. I'm obviously going to make decisions that are good for my life and possibly not the bottom line every time. I obviously do prioritize making revenue because, like you said, at the beginning, you can't have a successful business or sustainable business unless you are profitable, unless you choose to make decisions that help you stay profitable for the long term. But I'm also going to decide things like, "Well, I'd rather spend time in the garden with my wife or going for hikes. Those sorts of things are just as important as profit to me, so they also get the priority that the business gets."
Pru Chapman:
Yeah. I think another thing that you... it's already come up, and that is the focus on profit rather than revenue as well. Just this old two dimensional way of looking at business of how much money do you make? It's really inconsequential how much money you actually make. What's more interesting is how much of it is in your back pocket at the end of the day that allows you to do the things that really light your fire. Particularly in the work I do, because I work with a lot of these lifestyle businesses... like you say, it used to be a derogatory term, but it is our life, right?
Paul Jarvis:
Exactly.
Pru Chapman:
There's no getting around a lifestyle business, but actually having that money in your pocket to then be able to do the things that you value in life.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. We're all so enamored by the sexy gross numbers, where it's like, "My business makes a million dollars." It's like, "Cool, bro. But if it took 900 grand to make a million dollars, you only really made a hundred grand, right?"
Pru Chapman:
Exactly.
Paul Jarvis:
I would rather make less and have higher margins because it requires less work. If I have to work so much harder to make just a little bit more, I can't do it.
Pru Chapman:
It's not worth it. Also, I mean, allowing that space, and I think time is our most precious thing. There's an infinite amount of money in this world, but our time is not infinite. It's very finite. To actually have that at the top of the pyramid, if you like, to really value our time and how we spend it. Also, I personally think that the most successful businesses out there are the ones where they truly light the fire of the founder. To be able to do that, you need to invest into other areas of your life. None of my best ideas have ever come from sitting in front of my computer. Just sitting there for eight or nine or 16 hours a day, just like, "Oh my God, what am I going to do next?" And ping, there's an idea. No way.
Pru Chapman:
My best ideas come from... I remember one of them, which actually totally transformed my business about a program that I was running. I was in a van, a terrible old camping van on a dusty road, driving from Portugal to Spain, just staring at a dusty road for eight hours. But that's where one of my best ideas came from, and it was being in an unfamiliar environment and of stoking my fire in other areas. That actually then was the magic that needed to come into my business that then increased my revenue and my profit and everything around it. I think that there's this unseen investment areas in the rest of our lives that actually can make the magic.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah, it's hard to do your best work when you're burnt out.
Pru Chapman:
That's a good way to say that.
Paul Jarvis:
Working and not be burnt out I think is key, especially for longevity. I mean, I've run my business for... I guess it's over 21 years now. Wow! I feel old. But it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. I wouldn't have been able to keep going if I had just pushed myself that hard at all costs for that long. I wouldn't be able to form a sentence. I mean, I can't really form sentences that well anyways, but it'd be that much worse.
Pru Chapman:
I think this is like I've been saying a lot lately to my crew, is that selfish is sustainable. Actually when you're making decisions in your business, ask if they're really going to serve you. Be selfish. Selfish is typically seen as a bad thing, but if those decisions are really going to serve you, that is going to build into the sustainability of your business because it's sustaining you.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. I mean, like in the airplane thing, you got to put your mask on first before you put it on the next person over. Yeah, I think that that's true. You need to be able to do this for as long as you want to do it. If that's the case, then yeah, you had to take care of yourself. You take care of your profits and your customers and all of that, but you are also important. You're one of the biggest pieces of that pie, so it's important.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well, Paul, you didn't start as a company of one, you started working for other people. Can you talk us a little bit through the progression of going from working from someone else to becoming, I guess, working for yourself and then sticking to the Company of One concept?
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. I think I can attribute that to being really good at quitting things. I quit university because it wasn't really stoked on that. Actually I got a job doing tech support. I wasn't really happy with that, so I quit that job. I got a job at an agency doing graphic design and eventually a creative director, and I wasn't stoked on that. It was actually really hard to quit that job because I was doing well. I was super young, I was doing well. I just couldn't do it anymore. I got to a point where I was like, "Okay, I'd rather make little or far less money than keep doing the thing that I'm doing," and so I quit. The next day I was going to go to... and this is so long ago, the internet wasn't what it was in the 90s, but I was going to go to the library and look up how to make a resume because I'd never made a resume before. I had just been hired because I knew people at... I'm always been good at networking with people.
Paul Jarvis:
I was going to go look up how to write a resume because I figured that the job was fine. I just needed to work somewhere else. My boss and I didn't get along. I was like, "I'll just go find another agency to work at." But before I could get to the library, I started to get calls from clients of that agency saying, "Hey Paul, we like working with you more than your boss. Wherever you go, we'll just take our business. So let us know." I got a couple calls like that, and the light bulb went off in my head. I was like, "Well, maybe I could just start my own thing and then I can be my boss. And If I hate my boss it's my own fault." I never dreamed about being an entrepreneur. I'd never planned on being an entrepreneur. Until literally it was happening in real time did I think, "Hey, maybe this is something I can do. Maybe I can work for myself, and maybe I can see if this works for a little bit."
Pru Chapman:
Yeah. Incredible. This is something you touched on in the book as well, was that you knew that you were going to have the first few clients because becoming a company of one or even working for yourself is definitely not for everyone. To be able to kind of have that, I guess, launch pad to launch off and know that you're going to land with a few people around you.
Paul Jarvis:
I think a lot of people that don't work for themselves think that it's inherently risky to be an entrepreneur. I think it can be for sure if you do it in a certain way, but I've always been very risk adverse. I would rather not risk. My wife is always trying to get me to go on roller coasters. I still won't want to go on roller coasters. I don't want to jump out of a plane with parachute. I'm not a risky person. I'm very non-risky. So the way that I approach business, only way I've always approached business is to minimize the risk as much as humanly possible. Nobody has a crystal ball, we can't know for certain what's going to happen in the future. I mean, nobody predicted this global pandemic as a small business owner, right.?
Paul Jarvis:
The way that I started was I figured, "Okay, I can do this because I have some clients lined up and because I have a pretty good network." It wasn't that much of a risk at the time. Almost no expenses as well. What I was doing was web design, and I already had a computer, which was my biggest expense. So, it was pretty easy. Same with when I transitioned to products from services. I didn't actually do that until my product business was making far more than my web design and consulting business, because I didn't want to take that risk. I always go very, very slowly and methodically because I don't want to have very much risk. I want to have as little risk as possible, and I think there is a way to do it. If you are risk adverse and you want to be an entrepreneur, what I'm saying is that it's possible because that's exactly how I operate.
Pru Chapman:
I think they're smart steps as well. I think in this day and age where we're really click bait heavy and we're looking at social feeds and we're just seeing people's end game, we don't see the steps that come behind that. From working with a lot of businesses, the most successful ones that I know, they weren't built overnight. They might look like it, but they're usually five, 10, 15 years old. Usually around that, somewhere between five and 10 year mark before they really get some attention behind them, and it's because they've built on solid foundations. The business owner has taken the time to dive deep into their work and usually being quite passionate about the work as well. I think that's also something that is underestimated in today's society. Just the joy of doing your craft.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. I would push back a little bit on that because I think that, at least for myself, the passion for the work comes after I do it for a while, so I'm not led by passion. I'm led by what I think is valuable and that makes money. Then I find the passion in the thing after that. I was never a passionate designer and I did design for over a decade. I was never passionate writer. I didn't even like writing until I wrote a book or two and I saw that, "Okay, this is doing well. I don't hate it now. Maybe I'll keep going on." And now I really like writing. I think that passion can also come after mastery, especially if you're the type of person who's like, "Oh geez, I don't even know what my passion is." Then you get stressed out because you're like, "Everybody already has a passion. I don't know what mine is."
Paul Jarvis:
I think sometimes it's just like, "Do some work and see what sticks." Then it can come from that. It can come from mastering a craft.
Pru Chapman:
Well, of course, right? Because we all like things that we're better at. Like surfing, I'm like, "I really want to learn to surf." Goodness, I might've missed my window. Maybe not though, but I'm sure if I was better at it, I'd have more of a passion to do it more often.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. Because I was so horrible at surfing. I mean, even now I'm still pretty bad at surfing, but it's still always just been something that's like, "Okay." After I tried it for a while and realized that it wasn't scary because I thought it was super scary, it just became super enjoyable. Whereas something like snowboarding, and I know I live in Canada, so I'm was supposed to snowboard and play hockey, I just can't get passionate about either of those things.
Pru Chapman:
Well, I'm definitely passionate about snowboarding. I think I've done skiing in Canada as well, actually in Big Whites. So fun. But anyway, I digress. Back to Company of One, as you started talking about this concept of questioning growth for growth's sake, you started to attract a bit of a like-minded tribe, or maybe a better way to say that is that people came out of the woodwork a little bit to say, "Hey, I'm picking up what you're throwing down here."
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah, it's funny because I never really intended to write... this a story about my friend, and friend tended to do the thing that I did. Then I did it, it worked sometimes, only about 50% of the time. I've never really been big on using social media. I've never had a Facebook account or LinkedIn. I had an Instagram account when I had pets, and one of my pets passed away, I was like, "I don't care." So, I don't even use social media that much. I have a Twitter account, but it's mostly just for me to be sarcastic with my friends. I've always done a newsletter, which I've sent weekly for probably six or eight years. I wrote an article just trying to, I guess, better explain to my audience what my weird ideas around business and growth were, and I think that the article was called something like I don't Really Care About Growth.
Paul Jarvis:
I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to let everybody know the way that I approach business so they can better understand me." I typically get two, three, 400 replies when I send out my email every Sunday. For that one I got over 1,000 really, really quickly too, or more.
Pru Chapman:
Wow!
Paul Jarvis:
And I thought to myself, "Maybe I'm not the only weirdo out there who thinks that we should question growth and prioritize freedom over bigger when we see success in our business." It basically came from an article, and I was like, "Okay, I'm not the only person here who thinks that." Then started talking with agents, and the one that I worked with, she's brilliant. She thought, "Okay, I can sell this to a publisher." And I was like, "Really?" And she said, "Yes, definitely." Then when I talked to publishers, they were like, "Yeah, this is something that we can publish." So, the whole time I've been like, "I can't believe that this is resonating with other people."
Paul Jarvis:
Since the book published January 2019, something like that, people have... the last line in the book is my email address, which I thought I was going to regret. And all my author friends were like, "No, why did you do that?" I was like, "Oh, let's just see what happens." Every week still, I get at least a couple people emailing me about how they run a business that has the mindset of Company of One as well, or they're finally like, "Oh, I found people who feel the same way as I do." I'm like, "Yeah, there's a whole bunch of us. I'm just the guy who wrote the book about it, but there's a whole bunch of people who feel that way."
Pru Chapman:
Yeah. I think it's just going to grow and grow as well as people smarten up to it. I guess the next question from me is, what do you see as the advantages of staying as a company of one?
Paul Jarvis:
Somebody tweeted today... I ain't going to butcher the tweet. I can only half remember it, but I remember it being really good. It's a really bad way to start a story. But he said it's easier to pivot when you only have two feet. And I thought that was-
Pru Chapman:
Ooh, yes.
Paul Jarvis:
That kind of sums it up, right? Obviously this is my first pandemic. Most people, there are everybody's first pandemic. But I've lived through a couple dot-com bubble bursts, some recessions and all of that, where business has been really good or really bad depending on the economy. When you're smaller you have less expenses, and it's easier to pivot or move or change directions as needed. When I was doing design work, especially, it was good because anytime there was an economic downturn, people couldn't afford the big agencies, but I was doing work that I thought or that they thought... I was on par with agencies. Their budgets were decreased so they could hire me, which I was still charging pretty expensive rates for, but it was only me doing the work. I didn't have an office or junior designers doing the work, or project managers or any of that, so It was easier for me to generate more profit from projects at lower prices than the bigger agencies. Just thinking about that way, it's easier to change direction.
Paul Jarvis:
It's also simpler when you're smaller, you can have simple rules and processes that you can basically remember in your head. With simple systems it's easier to manage, it's faster to make decisions because typically you're the only one, or it's a small team of people making decisions. I guess I will point out because I don't think I did at the start, Company of One, I don't literally mean a one person company. My company isn't even a one person company. It's just more of that mindset like I said. So, I guess I'll clarify that. The other thing with the benefit of staying small I think is autonomy, and being able to think through, be thoughtful, and then make decisions on our own as opposed to just getting a decision passed down from on high from somebody who's probably out of touch with the consumer base anyways.
Paul Jarvis:
I think the final thing, and the most important thing is about the benefits of being small is resilience. I think that resilience is probably more useful than... says a guy without any degrees or diplomas, I think is more important and useful than an education or training. Because I think when things are bad like they are now, resilience is what helps us do things like accept reality, see a sense of purpose or a greater good even if things change. We still have that North Star. Then finally, resilience means that we have the ability to adapt, because obviously everything has changed right now, but even if this wasn't happening, things change all the time, so we have to as well. We can't stay stuck in, "Well, this is the way our company does it and it's done it for 100 years with our 10,000 employees." It's like, "No, things aren't working. Then me and the person or the people that I work with or just myself, if we need to change, then that's what we're going to keep things going."
Pru Chapman:
I love that. I think as well, people traditionally have seen working for someone else or working as part of a big organization as a safe and secure job. I actually firmly believe that it's the exact opposite because you have so little influence on how this business can change. Can the business pivot? It's going to be a bigger moving ship, but whereas when you're a small and you work for yourself, you can be so agile. Like we're seeing right now, when you do need to change things up, you might need to completely pivot your business, you might need to hibernate your business, you might need to expand, but the smaller you are and the more agile you are, the more resilient you are.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah. I mean, when I was in my early twenties, I saw a lot of my friends getting jobs at big companies because they thought it was safe. They've since been laid off or got rehired or move to another company. They've changed jobs half a dozen times, which is pretty common. Whereas I've still been plugging along with my little company for over two decades. So yeah, I think I agree with that for sure.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah. For you, because you obviously have a really engaged email list, you have a successful profitable business, you're an author as well, there's quite a few things going on for you. So I imagine quite a lot of opportunities coming your way as well. I mean, what's your compass on saying no to things? Because essentially that comes in core to the equation, doesn't it?
Paul Jarvis:
It does. Basically, my default is "no" to everything ever.
Pru Chapman:
I'm feeling very privileged right now.
Paul Jarvis:
But I think that that opens things up to, "Okay, I'm only going to do this thing if I really, really want to do it, or I'm only going to do this interview if I really, really want to do it, or I'm only going to take on this business opportunity." I think we can become enamored by these things called the opportunities, especially in the beginning when we see an opportunity, then it's an honor to be given the ability to take an opportunity. But as things go on and you start to mature as a business owner... not as a person, because I'm still super immature, but as a business person, then you can start to be more discerning with opportunities. Because if you continue to say yes to everything, you're not going to have time for everything. Secondly, if you say yes to everything, you're probably going to end up doing a bunch of stuff you don't want to do. Then if something really good comes along, you may not have the bandwidth to take it on.
Paul Jarvis:
I would rather basically be a blanket "no" to everything. I just have that as my default state. It's also easier to turn things down when it's like, "Well, can you come and do the speaking gig?" And I say, "No, I don't do speaking gigs." I've never actually done speaking kicks, not even in the time of COVID. It's easy to just say no to everything or say no to every interview, and then if something comes along that seems really good or really interesting or something that's just like, "I want to talk to this person, I want to do this event," then it's like, "I can say yes because I have the bandwidth to say yes." I think that a lot of time we think that, "Oh, we're entrepreneurs, we should be busy all the time," and being busy as this badge of honor, and I don't like being busy. It's stressful, it's tiresome.
Paul Jarvis:
I feel like I need to sleep a lot and eat a lot of comfort food like macaroni and cheese or something if I'm busy all the time. So I don't want to be busy. I like not being busy. I know that sometimes I have to be busy for short amounts of time. Like if my software company is launching a new feature, then there's probably a day or two when my partner and I need to work on something for more than I typically work. But I always know that if I am busy, that there's an end in sight to that busy-ness and I can get back to not being busy, which is the default state I actually like to be in.
Pru Chapman:
I love that. I think that should become everyone's tagline. Well, it's definitely going to become mine. Just set the default to "no." Exactly as you say, then you have the bandwidth and the passion to say yes to things as well. Instead of just the yes guy, no one wants to be the yes guy.
Paul Jarvis:
No.
Pru Chapman:
No?
Paul Jarvis:
I mean, yes.
Pru Chapman:
Yes but no. I mean, we are in this time of COVID right now. I guess my observation of it here in Australia is that people are really... they're embracing social distancing, they're dialing things back in a really wonderful way. I guess what I'm seeing is that people are just learning to live with less, and I think that that's a great thing for humanity and for our planet as well because we've just been off our faces on consumption for so long. Do you think that there's going to be a swing towards the Company of One concept? I mean, I certainly hope that there is, but how do you see business potentially changing in this time?
Paul Jarvis:
I mean, I obviously would hope that as well, not just because my book will sell more copies, but because the world will be a better place for, like you said, for the environment. I think that environmental damage that we've done and this pandemic that we're facing are linked to each other. I think that given that we all basically have more time to think at the moment, whether we want to or not... and sometimes having that time is scary. I know when I moved to Tofino, all I had was time to think, and that freaked me out for quite a bit of time. But I think that when we have that and we start to question what normal is, then we might come to some conclusions that surprise ourselves.
Paul Jarvis:
Like where I live, I live on an Island where there's probably about just under a million people. So it's a big Island, but it's not a huge, it's not like a New York City or anything like that. I've just seen such a surge of people wanting to support local businesses. Nobody has said, "I hope that Walmart doesn't go out of business," but everybody has said, "I hope that coffee roaster doesn't go out of business, or that candle maker doesn't go out of business, or the electrician that is actually really good that doesn't go out of business." I just think of things like that. I was talking to a guy who has a distillery up Island, and he switched over to making hand sanitizer because he basically had the right ingredients to make hand sanitizer. I don't actually know how to make hand sanitizer. He does.
Paul Jarvis:
But he started making it as soon as this thing started, and he started giving it away to first responders. He couldn't actually sell it because of government regulations, because he wasn't certified in whatever you need to be certified in. But I think people saw that, and when he was able to sell it... I keep checking his website, he's been sold out of the hand sanitizer. He is now allowed to sell. Since he released it... and it's not cheap either, it's good quality, has really nice label, because he makes fancy gin and vodka. So, obviously the label for his hand sanitizer is the nicest label you've ever seen. But it's sold out, and I think that people are seeing, "Okay, well, what businesses do I want to support into the future? What businesses do I want to see succeed when we get through this?"
Paul Jarvis:
I don't know if you have this in Australia, but every single commercial here is this somber piano music, and some big business that really doesn't give a shit about anybody talking about how much they care and how we're all going to get through this together. And it's like, "We can see through that." Everybody has a BS detector, and it's an overdrive seeing stuff like that. But when we hear small businesses doing things that are better for the community and not always good for their profit or their pocketbooks, then we remember that. And that I think is what's going to, hopefully, keep going into the future. At least in an ideal world, that's what I really like to see.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah, I love that. And definitely I'm seeing that. I mean we live in a small town here as well. I think crisis can really bring out the best in people. It can also bring out the worst. But definitely from where I am... and I know I'm in a super privileged position, but I'm definitely seeing that support, and the comradery, and the best of humanity coming out in supporting our small businesses here. So yeah, I really hope that that sees through as well.
Paul Jarvis:
It's funny because I do a technical support for two of the businesses that I have, and I'm definitely seeing people, in general, being a lot nicer and understanding, and there are still the all caps emails. People are properly freaking out right now. On some level I understand and empathize with them. I'm also not going to put up with anybody's disrespect, so I'll give them their money back before engaging with them. But for the most part, people are. I think it has just lifted the veil of, "We have to be these 'professionals' to be business owners." We're all just humans. We're all just people. So I think it's really lifted that veil of... when you ask somebody how they're doing now, you mean it, and it's not just a social pleasantry, even if it's people that you work with.
Paul Jarvis:
So I think there is this coming together of humanity and breaking down the walls of just like, "We have to be prim and proper because we're doing business together and have to be robots." It's like, "Nah, let's not do that. We're just people. We're all going through a bunch of stuff that we're going through, so let's just be there for each other and talk to each other about it."
Pru Chapman:
Yeah, perfect. People are people, human to human. That's exactly what we are. Awesome. I guess a personal question for you is, what are your metrics of success? How do you go to sleep at night feeling good, giving yourself little pat on the back?
Paul Jarvis:
I mean, I don't usually do that, probably should do that more. I think for me I feel better when I have the most freedom that I could possibly have, where I've made decisions about my business. I think some people are put on this earth to manage others, and they do an exceptional job at it. I'm not that person. So I know that the less I have to manage the better I feel, because I'd rather be doing stuff than managing other people doing stuff. I just feel jealous that they're doing the work that I want to do. When I think about that and I think about, "Okay, well, maybe my business isn't making as much as it could even though it's doing all right." But that trade off is good for me because I don't have to have the responsibility.
Paul Jarvis:
I have talked to friends that have companies where they basically would sit crying in their car before they had to walk in and lay everybody off because the economy sucks. And as horrible as I feel for those people, I'm like, "I don't know if I would have the ability to deal with that." So I'm glad that I haven't had to deal with that. Just things like that where it's like, "I would rather be a small business where I have the most amount of freedom, than a bigger business where my freedom is diminished in any way."
Pru Chapman:
I like that. I think I heard you say somewhere... might've been in the book or it might've been in an interview, but it was something around having the least amount of responsibilities while simultaneously making the most amount of money, or something along those lines.
Paul Jarvis:
Exactly.
Pru Chapman:
I was like, "Yeah, that's it. I really resonate with that. I don't want to be responsible for much either."
Paul Jarvis:
Capitalist Peter Pan.
Pru Chapman:
Yeah.
Paul Jarvis:
Yeah, I just want to be a capitalist Peter Pan.
Pru Chapman:
I love that. That's so good. Awesome. All right, Paul. Well, to bring us home... and I've just so thoroughly enjoyed this chat. I could sit here all day, but it will give me an excuse to come to Vancouver Island and visit you one day.
Paul Jarvis:
Yes.
Pru Chapman:
As soon as I can get on a plane, Canada is actually number one on our list. We need to get some of that BC forest time in.
Paul Jarvis:
Nice.
Pru Chapman:
A couple of rapid fire questions that I ask all about One Wild Ride guests here just to finish this off. So tea or coffee for you?
Paul Jarvis:
Coffee and then tea.
Pru Chapman:
Both, I like it. Fate or freewill?
Paul Jarvis:
Freewill.
Pru Chapman:
Do you have any kick ass daily habits in place?
Paul Jarvis:
No. I hate habits.
Pru Chapman:
Oh, good. All right.
Paul Jarvis:
I mean, I [crosstalk 00:46:26] because they have to, but it's not really a habit. Yeah, I don't like habits at all for myself. For other people I know they work. For me, not so much.
Pru Chapman:
I like it. I like it a lot. Now, this is a question maybe not for right now, but if you could jump on a plane tomorrow and go anywhere in the world with anyone, where would you go and who would you go with?
Paul Jarvis:
I'd probably go to the desert in California with my wife.
Pru Chapman:
Perfect. Who else would you like to see me interview on the podcast?
Paul Jarvis:
Oh gosh. You should probably talk to my buddy Cait Flanders, who wrote the book Year of Less. It was an international bestseller. Yeah, her message I think is super valuable, especially right now. She has another book coming out I think in September, something like that. Yeah, I think you'd vibe with her real well.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome. Year of Less. I like the sound of that already. Then finally, Paul, how can people connect with you?
Paul Jarvis:
Sundaydispatches.com. I don't really exist in many places on the internet, but my mailing lists... obviously I send an email on Sunday because it's called the Sunday Dispatches. That's the best place. I write about all the things that you and I, Pru, spoken about today. So yeah, if you like what you've heard here, then my list is basically articles like that.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome. Paul, thank you so much. It has been an absolute treat. I'm such a fan of the work that you're doing in this concept that you're bringing to life and shining a light on. So, thank you so much for sharing some time with me today.
Paul Jarvis:
Thanks, Pru, I appreciate it. This was so much fun.
Pru Chapman:
Awesome.