Olli Ella | Chloe Brookman
Conversation with CHLOE BROOKMAN
Chloe Brookman is the co-Founder of Olli Ella, a global lifestyle brand she began with her sister Olivia in London in 2010. What started as a side-hustle selling nursing chairs quickly spread into Australia, Europe and the US, adding apparel, homewears, travel, toys and accessories along their journey. It seems the world can’t get enough of the Olli Ella vintage-aesthetic and naturally produced products, inspired by the sister’s Australian and Californian summer lifestyles. Now with offices in Byron Bay, Los Angeles and London, there seems to be no slowing down these family-orientated sisters.
“We really believe that every child has this inherent desire to push, pull, care, and play. We really try to infuse that into everything that we design with our apparel, with our homewares, it’s unfussy, it’s simple, everything is made from organic materials.”
Olli Ella is a global lifestyle brand founded in London in 2010 by sisters Chloe and Olivia Brookman. What started as a side-hustle selling nursing chairs was picked up early by Harrods, which saw fast growth both at home, as well as abroad into Australia, Europe and the US.
What stands Olli Ella apart is the timeless design of their products, featuring natural sustainably sourced materials, with a strong focus is on craftsmanship and ethical production. Their aesthetic is heavily influenced by the sister’s Australian and Californian summer lifestyles, with a carefree, easy to use and wear vintage-look and feel.
Since the start they’ve been a fast growing company, and from the simple nursing chair have added homewears, apparel, accessories, and very distinctive luggage, that children are immediately drawn to.
Today, Olli Ella has offices in Byron Bay, Los Angeles and London, and there seems to be no slowing down these family-orientated sisters. Holding family-values and sustainable production at the heart of everything they do, we certainly hope they don’t slow down either!
Mentioned in conversation...
The humble beginnings of Olli Ella and how they rapidly grew into a global lifestyle brand
The challenges and triumphs in moving into overseas markets
The importance of allowing your creativity to roam free in the early years of business
How a focus on sustainably sourced and ethical production has always been a priority for Olli Ella
The ways in which Chloe manages being a mum-of-four and a being hands-on in her business
The importance of family-values and the bond between sisters that has seen a small idea grow into a fast-growing global brand
Follow Chloe and Olli Ella here:
Olli Ella Website
Olli Ella Instagram
Olli Ella Facebook
Olli Ella Pinterest
Olli Ella Twitter
Full Podcast Transcript - chloe brookman, olli ella
Pru:
Hey Chloe, and welcome to the show.
Chloe:
Thank you, so happy to be here.
Pru:
I'm so glad we're here and especially because we literally got flooded out last week, so reconvening here in Byron. Now, Chloe, you are of course the co-founder of Olli Ella with your sister, an incredible brand. And I just want to dig deep into all the amazing things that you guys do. But I think probably the best place to start is how you guys started. Where were you in life, because you've been in business for a little while now. What was going on?
Chloe:
Okay, so Olivia and I, Olivia is my sister who I started Olli Ella with. We were living in London and we actually had started an art gallery two years before Olli Ella, and it was 20th century works on paper. And when we first started out we thought it's this really creative, exciting industry and we found a couple of years and it wasn't creative, it was very sales focused. And so Olli Ella started as a little side project where we actually started making nursing chairs locally in London. So we had ... I was pregnant with my first son and I couldn't find a contemporary nursing chair at the time. It was literally like your grandmother's rocker or something from IKEA.
Chloe:
And so, yeah so we had ... Olivia and I designed a nursing chair. We had it made locally and it's one of those things where friends were like, "Oh, can I have one made?" We're like, "All right, we'll make one for you." And then after about 10 of them, we were like, maybe we should actually do something with this. So came up with a name, the first thing we always do is name and buy a domain. Like we've done this so many times in the history of our, sort of entrepreneurship. We've started so many companies where we like, let's get the name, get the website, and then it's [inaudible 00:01:50] away.
Pru:
It's so official, once you have the website, right?
Chloe:
It is, once you like [crosstalk 00:01:53]-
Pru:
You're like, this is legitimate now.
Chloe:
And then were like, oh no, is this a good idea? It wasn't actually good business. So yes-
Pru:
And then for the next 10 years, you've actually got the reminders about renewing that domain.
Chloe:
Oh, totally, that's so funny. Exactly. So we got the name, got the domain and we designed one more nursing chair, so we had three altogether. And we took them to a trade show in 2010 and we got picked up by Harrods straightaway.
Pru:
Okay. I'm going to pause you there. So when you say that you've got them made locally, I mean, who was making them in London? Was it like a man down the end of an alley?
Chloe:
Honestly it was ... Yes, it was like a 50 year old man in the country in England. That was it.
Pru:
Fantastic.
Chloe:
Like he did it, he installed the frames by hand. We had it upholstered. And the thing is that was so interesting about this was, when we sort of were going through the process, because we actually, honestly, neither of us went to college. Neither of us had done any sort of formal business trainings, we really were learning on the go. And so we brought in an advisor and we sort of told him what we were doing. We told him how much we felt we needed to sell them for, how we were spending to make them. And he just said, you've got no business here. Like you literally, this is not a business. And we really believed in it and we went forward anyway.
Chloe:
And the way we decided we had to is we wanted to make it locally. We knew that it had to be a certain price point. So even though we were maybe making like a 10% margin, we knew that eventually we would hopefully be able to increase our order size, decrease the cost that we were spending and get to where we need to go. But if the price was too high from the beginning, we knew we wouldn't have anything.
Pru:
That's so smart, like talk about trusting your intuition. How old were you guys at the time?
Chloe:
I was 28, this our 10th year actually, in July of this year it will be our 10th year. So now you now my age too.
Pru:
Amazing. Okay, so you've got this idea, you registered the domain, you get it made off this little man in the countryside. Amazing. You start taking some more and then got a business, take it to a trade show.
Chloe:
Yes.
Pru:
And Harrods-
Chloe:
Harrods-
Pru:
Harrods, wow and this like-
Chloe:
Harrods was like ... I don't even understand.
Pru:
Is this the dream way?
Chloe:
It was our five year goal was to get into Harrods. Like that was it. And they picked us up on the spot and I think it was, look, it was luck, right place, right time. Doing something that wasn't currently being done. There was a niche for it, there was definite demand for it. And we, I think we realized that just from having so many people ask us before we even had started Olli Ella, like oh, could you make us one? Can you make my friend ... And I think, yeah we listened to our intuition and we just went with it. And then the great thing about, I feel like the reason we were able to do it the way we did it is we weren't spending a lot on manufacturing, so we were not, everything was made to order. So we were not investing massively in stock. Every chair was made to order, every chair was six weekly time. And that would allow us to grow the company without having to get outside investments.
Pru:
Amazing, amazing. Okay, so when Harrods brings you on, I mean, what actually happens then? Do you go from zero to hero very quickly? Do you keep doing make to order?
Chloe:
The great thing about that was is it actually got us into a lot of stores, which was what our goal was. Our goal was to become like majority wholesale to have 80% wholesale, 20% direct because we just didn't have the infrastructure to support direct to customer. So before Harrods had picked us up, we had approached some stores and we were literally giving them chairs for free and we were saying, take this, put it in your store, you send us the orders, we'll drop ship directly to the customer. There's no outlay for you, just to get their trust. And it worked really well. So the only difference was when Harrods picked us up, all the stores wanted to carry us because Harrods is like that seal of approval. They vetted us.
Chloe:
So what ended up happening was the stores, then we could pick and choose the stores we wanted to be in. We could also have the stores pay for the floor samples. So that meant that we were making a little bit of money, we weren't losing so much on the floor samples.
Pru:
Amazing, amazing. So at this time when all of this ... I mean, was this happening relatively quickly at the time or was it more of a slow burn?
Chloe:
Very quickly.
Pru:
It was fast.
Chloe:
Very quickly, yeah.
Pru:
Okay. So we're you guys literally still sitting in the art gallery and around the art gallery?
Chloe:
At the basement of the art gallery. So the floor was where we had all the paintings and downstairs was where we also huddled over a single bulb.
Pru:
Very Richard Branson style.
Chloe:
You know what? We also, I think what was so nice about it is because we were so green, we made a lot of mistakes but we learnt so much. We were literally Googling how to figure out wholesale price, like what is wholesale. Like we knew nothing and it was yeah, it was a really, like if I went back and did it again, I would do it exactly the same way.
Pru:
Amazing, amazing. And of course you had each other, didn't you? So how important was having that relationship kind of to keep you through the highs and the low times?
Chloe:
Having each other was really, I think, like when people ask me what the best part of Olli Ella is to me is working with my sister. It was a childhood dream of ours, honestly, from the earliest age we were setting up shops. We were always talking about working together and as I said, from probably the age of Olivia being 17, me being 19, we weren't coming up with business ideas most of them completely fell through the wayside. But I think that we ... And it doesn't always work with siblings in the same way. It doesn't always work with friends, but we do have like an inherent trust in one another. We are able to be honest with one another and I think we have very different skill sets and strengths, but we seem to be always aligned on the fact that we value that each of us is going to bring something different.
Chloe:
She's more conservative, I'm probably more aggressive in terms of how we approach business, but we're always willing to be wrong and we're always willing to let the other one convince the other one their point of view. And I think that's really important, not needing to be right and being open. So yeah, I love working with her so much.
Pru:
And it's amazing, to follow along on your stories as well. Like you can really feel that kind of love and respect that you guys have for one another. And it's just, it's such ... I mean, it's a family brand at it's very essence and I think it just comes through like right from your, just like the crux of your value systems.
Chloe:
I adore her, like I adore her. I really do. She was living with me from the age of 15. Like I moved out of home early, she moved out of home early and it's been so beautiful, our relationship evolving from young sisters to business partners. And now mothers and it's really been special. It's been like my life's highlight, I would say, is working with Liv.
Pru:
That's amazing. And I mean, right from the birth of Olli Ella as well was you were pregnant when you started.
Chloe:
That's right.
Pru:
So this journey of being sisters and then as you say, mothers together and growing through all of these challenges and changes, all of them.
Chloe:
All of them.
Pru:
All right. So let's come back to Olli Ella. So you have got these three nursing chairs at this stage and you're starting to be picked up. I mean, are you still working with the man in the country at this stage or do you need to start kind of building in some more manufacturing?
Chloe:
So probably year in we moved to a small factory where it sells locally in England, the chairs are being made to order. And we'd have a small stock pile of chairs. So for example, we'd make six and we'd fulfill the orders like that. So we were able to invest more in the stock of the chairs where it wasn't just one chair at a time. I think that, sort of what happened in the, I'd say the 18 months following is Olli Ella grew very quickly. We grew very quickly internationally. Australia became a big market for us and we were shipping chairs from England to Australia. And it was at that point, it was in 2011 that we decided to open up an Australian manufacturer and remote office.
Chloe:
So that happened, because we just didn't want to be living such a big carbon footprint, so that happened. And then the company has changed a lot, but I think from the beginning, our ethos really has been about where possible locally made everything, sustainably sourced, family friendly, those sort of aha, simple designs that you don't actually need to explain. You can look at it and sort of figure out what it is.
Pru:
And so then into that international market, were you both still living in London at the time? Because eventually you both moved, so where did that come into play?
Chloe:
So in 2012, so the year after Australia opened, it was growing so quickly and we weren't able to manage it without one of us being on the ground. And we were still a very small team. I think there was ... I think there was four of us in total, so we just had two supports. And so I moved over there, over here in 2012 and grew the Australian business from here. Olivia only moved over to the USA when we opened, a year after opening our USA office, so that was two years ago.
Pru:
Ah, I see. And so was it just you were getting more and more demand from these areas? So that just it made sense.
Chloe:
So USA was in 2016 and that was a result, I think understanding that at this point in our business, we were six years old and we had competitors chopping at our heels. We had a strong demand for our product internationally. And honestly, if you would have asked me the year after opening the USA, I would have said it was the biggest mistake we'd ever made. It was ... I think we were very naive going into it. I think Australia had been pretty easy, but we also had very different product range when we launched in Australia. Whereas when we opened in the USA, we had a full product range of homewares and toys, and things. And it nearly sunk us.
Pru:
How so? Did the US market just not pick it up like you thought it would?
Chloe:
It did pick it up but we weren't able to ... Everything from the challenges of import, everything from the challenges of honestly setting up business infrastructure to the expectations retailers had in the USA compared to, in Australia, in Europe. It was, I think again, had we had the information beforehand, we never would have done it. We went into it naively, now it's the best decision we ever made. But at the time it was really, it was terrifying.
Pru:
And how did you guys, I mean, what did you do to get through that? Was it just all hands on deck and you doubled down on the US or?
Chloe:
So the way we dealt with it is we focus, at this point ... So we had our four markets, we had Europe, Australia, UK and USA now. So we focused on the markets which had the best revenue and the best profits in terms to support the USA, because the USA was literally just, we were just funneling money into it and we just weren't making it back. Like we were spending more than we were making. So we really focused on channeling all our energies into the markets, which were more productive and we rode the storm and about 18 months later, everything sort of ... But I'd say by mid 2018 we were good.
Pru:
Wow. That sounds like a really tough 18 months.
Chloe:
It was a really tough 18 months and I had a new baby and it was just ...
Pru:
But on the other side now.
Chloe:
On the other side.
Pru:
Okay. So let's talk about some of the growth points. So when Harrods picked you up, obviously a really big growth point and then setting up in Australia. What else, I mean were there any other points where it was just that rapid kind of growth that you had to catch up with?
Chloe:
Are you asking around products or just around time, like sub-points in our business?
Pru:
So both, whichever you fancy going to first.
Chloe:
Yeah. So 2013 was a very big one. That was when we moved into homewares. I don't know if you've got any ... I know here you don't. The belly baskets, which are that ... Do you know what I'm talking about? The traditional Vietnamese rice baskets, which had never been used, I mean as far as we'd seen in homewares before. So we brought them, we had them made in Vietnam through our fair trade factory. And kind of, I would say I didn't know, put them on trend. And so that's sort of-
Pru:
You certainly did.
Chloe:
Yeah. And they just went from like this little product that we had imported to, we couldn't, we literally couldn't meet the demand. And we were selling tens of thousands of units and that's a scary thing too, when all of your business is dependent on a single product, especially a product that you don't have design copyrights over, anything like that. So it was sort of at that point that we realized that we were very vulnerable and that this growth is amazing, but it is going ... like this is not our unique products. And that really got us thinking about building out that range. And Olivia designed the luggy in 2017. No, 2016, she designed the luggy, which is probably one of our most iconic products. It's a little handheld child's basket that you pull along on wheels. And she designed it for her, then 18 month old.
Chloe:
And I remember her showing it to me and I was like, I don't really think so, like maybe in the UK this will sell, but it's just, I don't think so. And there's a lot of eye rolling for me and she was like, trust me, this is going to be a great product. So I was like, all right, fine, like whatever, we can do it and it just exploded and kids got it straight, they just got it. It's the first thing ... Our retail still tell us it's the first thing that children go to in their store. So yeah, and that really took the business to a whole new level. And I guess it was the moment when we really took that turning point because we weren't worrying so much about what would sell and we actually started designing things that we genuinely wanted to make.
Pru:
That just perfectly segues into my kind of next question. As you're speaking, I mean, it sounds as though you guys, you created from your own need and from what was working for you and as becoming mothers and growing families. Is that how you've always designed?
Chloe:
Initially it did. Initially it did, but I think we did lose our footing maybe sort of that two years following the launch of Olli Ella where we were like, oh, people were like, you should make a baby bed. And we're like, all right, we'll make baby bedding. Like, oh you should do this. And it didn't feel like it was from the heart. And I feel like that sometimes, it sounds cheesy, but I do feel like that's where we went wrong a little bit. And it really was a turning point for us when we just started design truly what we wanted for ourselves. And we weren't worried about sales, we weren't looking about looking at sort of forecast or anything like that at the time. In fact, I think we've only started, been doing forecasting this past 18 months because we had to, so yeah.
Pru:
Amazing, amazing. Okay, so the luggy came along and that just puts you into a whole new growth trajectory. I mean, where to go next? Products, like let's stay on products for a minute.
Chloe:
Okay.
Pru:
From the luggy, I mean, was it the luggage that came next?
Chloe:
No, the luggy basically opened us up into that sort of return category. So I would say that was probably one of the things that we bought on trend was that sort of whole return in the interiors. So we build that out with some, the mini Chari bag, the ... I'm not going to name all the products, but just some sort of child-focused products that were made from return that sort of have those sort of aha design multiple uses. Everything is made ethically, so that sort of ... And this luggage came about two years ago and that ... But that was a surprise actually, that was another product which I was like, I don't know so much. And she was like, trust me. And that got picked up by Oprah as one of her favorite things.
Pru:
Really?
Chloe:
Yeah.
Pru:
How does that happen? How does Oprah pick something up?
Chloe:
Her stylist was going and shopping around through LA at all the different design houses and he spotted the CSU case and put it forward to Oprah and she said, "Yay."
Pru:
Yay, everyone said yay.
Chloe:
Yeah, exactly.
Pru:
And so when something goes on Oprah, then that must be another huge growth period.
Chloe:
I've got to say for us growth, touch wood growth has been really, really strong since day one. I think the challenge has really been just making sure that we're staying true to our ethos, making sure that we're able to support the growth, because growth is great, but it can be really stressful if you don't have the staff and the infrastructure to support it. And that's, I think when I said we've just started forecasting because we literally could not meet the demand and that, when you've got ... When 70% of your business is wholesale and you're not able to supply your wholesalers, that leaves a very bad taste in everyone's mouth. And we've got staff and we've got ... So we actually had to start being a bit more buttoned up. And a little less like, I don't know, why don't we do these, let's order 50 of these, lets do a thousand of these.
Pru:
I love that, I love that. And it's the perfect balancing, so that's really interesting. I mean from a business perspective is that you were kind of like leading your own race for all of these years it sounds like, kind of trusting what felt true to you, coming back and maybe going off course a little bit in the first few years, but then really kind of honing in on what it was that you wanted to create and not being too caught up in the world of business.
Chloe:
That's it. We literally have entered this world with children's eyes, honestly. I really have.
Pru:
I love that. I love that. And so what would you say, like what sits ... You were talking about like the ethos of Olli Ella, what sits there below the ethos?
Chloe:
For us I think the ethos is about enhancing play in life efforts of the effortless of everyday living. I think we really believe that every child has this inherent desire to push, pull care, play. And I think we really try to infuse that into everything that we design with our apparel, with our homewares, it's unfussy, it's simple, everything is made from organic materials. Our dresses and apparel is for women at all stages of their life. Can be worn back to front, can be layered, like I think just simple and effortless.
Pru:
Yes, I love that. And it's like, it's simple and it's sustainable as well. And I think whenever, like your products are so unique and iconic and you know when you're looking at one because they're quite timeless as well, so they kind of look like they're from a period far, far gone, but also of a period in the future as well. I think.
Chloe:
Yes, that's exactly ... When we design products we say we'd like it to be able to have stood the test of time 50 years ago and 50 years in the future. And so I love that you just said that.
Pru:
Perfect. Perfect. Okay, it sounds like sustainability has been at the core of what you've done, has that been a focus from the start or is it something that you've had to kind of retrofit into the business?
Chloe:
From the start, I think we were thinking more in terms of ecological footprint. I think we're thinking in terms making things locally where we could, we were thinking about where things are sourced from. So FSC certified word, making sure that our textiles were sort of we're good to be ... so good for being exposed to babies. So for example, OEKO-TEX certified, making sure that ... So I'm getting very detailed here, but I think as we have grown as a company and as we ourselves have become more educated, our breadth of what we're trying to focus on has obviously expanded. I think that we're definitely not perfect. We've got a long way to go, but we are always making improvements.
Chloe:
And for us, I think our main focus is making sure that our materials, wherever possible are organic, [inaudible 00:23:16] are natural materials, that everything has to be sustainably sourced. Our factories all have to be ethically certified. But there's so many more things we can do. Like our packaging is still, we're 70% recyclable. We should be, we'd love to be 100% recyclable. So all these things we're constantly working on and we're learning ourselves.
Pru:
Yeah. And I think that's really important to say because starting a business 10 years ago, no one knew what they knew now. It didn't have as much focus on it or attention on it. And I love that bigger brands are leading the way and sometimes I think it can be even more challenging for bigger brands because you're manufacturing in multiple places, there's just so many more moving parts for you. And now as we're becoming more conscious consumers and everyone wants more transparency in the supply chain, it's a much bigger job.
Chloe:
It isn't as interesting, I might get this percentage wrong or this number wrong, but like also the things that you think you know, but you actually don't know. Like we were informed last month that in the case of plastic bags for example, which we don't actually use plastic in our manufacturing and also in our packaging. But if you were to, a plastic bag compared to a one of those little cotton hessian tote things, you'd have to use one of those small cotton totes 30 times for it to be as recyclable as a single plastic bag. Like they're actually a problem too, which is something I would never in a million years would've thought that, that would be an issue.
Chloe:
But I think it's also like a big part of it for me isn't just doing what everyone is saying we need to be doing, but also looking at what the actual metrics are. So it's all a learning curve. We're going through the process of being B Corp certified right now, which is heavily involved and we're learning so much through this process as well.
Pru:
And there's a lot of brands around here, particularly in Byron. I mean, I think that's just a huge uptake with B Corp at the moment across Australia, which is so, so awesome and across the world. And I think around here in particular, and even I think it was only a few weeks ago, maybe a few months ago now, we had B-Corp here and one of your girls was here up-skilling around that certification process. And even James Perrin who was on one of our most popular episodes actually from Stone & Wood, the sustainability manager there, he just opened it up by saying, it's not about the certification on the outside, but actually having a process or a rigorous process and a framework to look through everything that we're doing.
Chloe:
100%. And that's why we're doing it because it's guiding us through this process, which is, it's extremely involved and it's extremely confusing. I think there's so much information out there and misinformation out there and having just that guiding force is proving invaluable.
Pru:
Yeah. Awesome, I love that. So how big is Olli Ella now? Like how many ... I mean, do you still have your key markets, which basically cover most of the world, I guess, but I mean, in staff, in products, because you've got quite a few different ranges now as well.
Chloe:
We're a staff of approximately 30. And we have three offices, so we've got one in Los Angeles, one here in Byron, which is our headquarters and in London. Our product range is in the hundreds.
Pru:
Wow.
Chloe:
Yeah, but it's like I'm saying not a day goes by where Olivia and I, when we're talking to each other on the phone and we all say, can you believe that this is our company? Can you believe we're at ... Like I remember even like four years ago or three years ago, we would just say like, how do companies get to that point where all of a sudden they've got like a load of staff supporting them or however, they've got this like full product range where everyone, like you know all that ... Like margins and you know how all these things that we just had no idea. And it really does feel like a dream that we are right now where we are in the business and not, like honestly, not a day goes by where I'm just A, not pinching myself and B, just not so grateful for it. A hundred is just a dream. It's an absolute dream.
Chloe:
It really is, I'm not saying it doesn't have its challenges, but I'm just so proud that children, people get our products and they love our products and they want them. And we've got this incredible team that's just so passionate and we're so inspired by as well. I've got goosebumps as I'm talking about, honestly.
Pru:
I do too.
Chloe:
It's a real dream and we've paved our own way. And I remember when I left school, my boyfriend's mom at the time, I would've been 17. She's like, if you don't go to college you're going to end up working in a jam factory. Not that there's anything wrong with working in jam factory, but you're going to be putting like jam lids on jam jars. And that always stuck with me and I'm really, really proud.
Pru:
Yeah. I think you should be, it's incredible what you guys have created and to maintain that beautiful value system underneath it that just like, it just rings true like across your whole brand and family and lifestyle and everything with an emphasis.
Chloe:
Thank you so much.
Pru:
So leading me into my next question, you are a mom of four kids, what?
Chloe:
Yeah.
Pru:
So this is ... I mean business has been running alongside you, creating this incredible family. I mean, I can hardly feed myself breakfast in the morning. How do you actually-
Chloe:
I don't feed myself breakfast because I have four kids to feed, so don't worry.
Pru:
I mean I know how it happens, but how do you go about managing a growing business and four babies? And like you said, up until four years ago, you were sort of wondering how these companies got made, but at the same time you're taking care of, you're bringing up, you're raising these small humans. So yeah, how does it happen?
Chloe:
Well look, I've had a child since the very first day of Olli Ella, which I think I've never known anything different. But it's really been a balancing act. From the beginning I knew that I wanted to be there when the kids came home from school and in the mornings. So I've always organized my work day around that. I think giving myself a break, not always trying to do things perfectly. I know that was a challenge for me as a new mom. Always feeling like I needed to be my absolute best self all the time, which was exhausting. And as soon as I gave that up, that was a massive turning point for me. And I think throughout the years, look, it has been challenging but I think it's helped. I've really loved what I've done for work and I've really loved parenting.
Chloe:
I love being a mom, so all my kids have come to the office with me from day one. I think that it's been really beautiful over the last two years because my husband retired from his career just because Olli Ella is at a place where he doesn't need to be working as well. And one of the reasons that we moved to Byron Bay was so that we as a family could be together more. So it wasn't about me being more in the office and him being home with the kids, so my work day is still probably four hours at the most at the office at one time. We're all together in the afternoon. I feel very privileged to ... This was a dream of mine and I do sometimes feel, or I always felt like life was just passing by so quickly. And we always talked about one day, moving to the country and living slower when the kids were older. But we had this realization a few years back, like why don't we do this now? And so it's been amazing. It really has been amazing.
Pru:
What was the turning point? So like you said, having this dream of moving to the countries, I think a lot of people have that, when we get older, when we ... our careers are, wherever, then we'll move to the country and then we'll spend more time with the family. So what was kind of the turning point for you?
Chloe:
The turning point was probably when Olli Ella was growing so much. This was in 2017, so much. And I wasn't enjoying it as much because it just felt so overwhelming and I felt like, even though I'm still keeping maximum five hours at the office, I had my daughter with me at the office. It was a lot of juggling. It didn't feel like sustainable and it felt like just overwhelming. And I started to feeling guilty that I wasn't able to really focus on my business. I wasn't able to focus on the growth of my business because I was too busy doing all the juggling and Charlie felt the same way, and I think he felt guilty as well. So being at the office while I was, balancing all these plates, so we just had an honest conversation about it and he was the one that's actually pushing for it was like, you know what? I think we need to reassess and refocus on sort of how we want to do this.
Chloe:
And so we started talking about this idea of slowing down a bit. And it was a really, really, really good move. It was probably the scariest one for me because I've never not lived in the city. And so we sold our house and we moved to the country and yeah, it was ... Having Charlie around helped me give myself permission to actually take a step back, ask for some help. So we got a mentor and Olivia and I got a mentor who took a look at our business and we were like, tell us who do we need to hire, what do we need to do? And he did and he came in, he's like, okay, this is the staff you need. This is how you need to be organizing your ordering cycles. All these things that we had no idea about, it was like we had an MBA, like a human MBA with us.
Pru:
Fantastic.
Chloe:
And so that was in 2017, Christmas of 2017. And that has really ... Sorry, your question was about how do I do the juggle of motherhood? Well, now I do it very differently, but that's the first eight years was very much just not needing me time. Being okay with making mistakes, not giving myself the mom guilt and just cutting myself a break and being okay with saying, do you know what? I don't know everything.
Pru:
I think that's so fantastic. A really good friend of mine has just taken up B grade momming. So she was always trying to be that A+ mom, which is completely unrealistic. I think it's unrealistic for absolutely anyone. And then I think you throw a business into the mix and you're just kind of setting yourself up for disaster, like internal disaster. And trying to meet these really unrealistic expectations. Even in my own business, I've got this kind of like shoot for 80%, anything above 80% is a total bonus.
Chloe:
I love that.
Pru:
But it just keeps things moving and it keeps the expectations realistically. Sorry, realistic, so.
Chloe:
But also like, one thing that's, this is very new to me, but changing ... And this sounds so cheesy, I'm really sorry, but changing the dialogue that you have with yourself has been mind blowing. So let's say you've dropped the ball at something at the office or let's say you weren't your best self in the afternoon with the kids or whatever. Instead of that voice feeling like, oh my God, you're so crappy right now. Like you've done a really crappy job. I'm like, I changed my dialogue where I catch myself in that thought and that has been amazing. And it's like instead of them sort of feeling slumped down in yourself and having to try and pick yourself back up again, I'm changing the thought as it's happening and it is, I'm very new to this but I am loving it.
Pru:
And what do you change it to be? Give us some examples.
Chloe:
Okay. So on Friday night I made a really big beautiful dinner. I made chicken soup and I made these things called Matzah balls, which are these like handmade doughy balls, which actually sound disgusting when you talk about them, but one of my sons, the first thing, so it was like, oh, this looks disgusting. My mind went to, I've been working on these all afternoon, how could he say that to me? Like that was where I went. I was like, change it to, he's seven years old, does look kind of gross. And I change it, like it became funny and just catching yourself in those thoughts because I think you can carry around these things with you that you don't even realize you're carrying around until you focus your energy on them. So yeah.
Pru:
That's so true. And getting so emotionally attached to these things.
Chloe:
Totally and you don't even realize.
Pru:
Yeah, and then your son didn't ... Like they kind of did look gross. They tasted delicious, that was the important part.
Chloe:
They actually didn't taste delicious, but yes.
Pru:
There's some honesty with the self talk as well. The big red momming, I love it. And why was it the choice, this little ... I mean, I'm going to ask you why you chose Byron Bay and-
Chloe:
Oh God, the A grade momming here.
Pru:
Well, yes, I mean for the A grade momming, but also because Charlie's not really a beach man.
Chloe:
Does not surf, does not like sand.
Pru:
Doesn't really like being in the beach.
Chloe:
Honestly I really don't know. And this is the thing, we came up to visit some friends, this was a few years ago and I liked it. I didn't feel an urge to move here and Charlie liked it too. And then I think over the course of the year, as we started having this conversation about slowing down, moving out, Byron Bay came up and it's ... I really, honestly to this day I almost felt like it was a force, an outside force moving us. And what we said, we went up for a visit in January again, January of 2017 and we said, okay, you know what? Come, go back, we'll put our house in the market and if it sells by this time, let's just do it. And we did and it sold and six weeks later we were here and we didn't even have time to process.
Pru:
And here you are, landed in Byron Bay.
Chloe:
Here we are, Charlie is still not going in the water much. But look, we're outdoors-y and we love it. We really love it here. It's a special part of the world.
Pru:
It is. And I mean, to be honest though, I think you're one of the only people that's ever said, we could go back to the city. I mean, I think once everyone moves to Byron Bay, they're like, oh, this is heaven. This is dreamy. But you love the go-between.
Chloe:
Love it.
Pru:
Like getting your city fix as well.
Chloe:
I do. I really do. I think probably having never lived in the country, it has definitely taken an adjustment. It's been great for me adjusting my personal pace. I move very quickly, I make a decision and it's happened and everything's been put into place half an hour later. And it was really humbling when we bought this old 70s bungalow and we've done most of the renovation ourself, but we did get some outside help.
Chloe:
And remember this one guy that was doing some of our floors, his name's Michael and trying to set up an appointment for him to come to the house. I was like, okay, I'll come to the site at eight o'clock. What sort of time do you think you could be there? He was like, it depends on the surf like before four and I was like ... And it was so confronting. It was so confronting because I had to deal with my own like things need to happen and dah, dah, dah and I need a time. And it's been one of the best things to me too is just like operating on a difference of time schedule other than the one that I'm driving all the time.
Pru:
Yeah, I love that little bit of surrender to it maybe.
Chloe:
Yes, completely.
Pru:
But I think that there's a fine balance with that as well because I'm the same kind of person. Like I like getting things done, I like working on things, I like getting things done. So there's this kind of dance between surrender and kind of being open to what's meant for me. But then also having just like this huge internal drive about like just that I love creating things. And so I'm finding it's just something that I'm exploring this year as well. It kind of feels like, and it's not ... I think the difference is it's not forcing one or the other anymore, but it's just like kind of observing the dance a little bit of what happens.
Chloe:
Yeah, also but like understanding that the effect that your energy and pace can have on other people and that sometimes can be a difficult thing to see when you're in the moment. But actually seeing like suddenly if I send ... Like I'm really trying now, like I won't text staff or my sister or whoever when it's past the work day if it's about work. Because even though I've had the thought and even though there's not an immediate action item, I'm trying to get it out but it can affect them in a different way and like just trying to be more conscious of, I'm always going to ... I call myself a squirrel because I have like that squirrel energy. But trying to be conscious of that affect on other people as well. Yeah, because not everyone has this pace.
Pru:
Really timid. Okay, so you mentioned a minute ago that you got, and I think you said December 2017, you got a mentor into the business. So how did that change things for you guys?
Chloe:
I think what Olivia and I always said is we just want someone that we can ask, okay, what do we do? How do we do this? We know what we need to achieve, but how do we put things into place in an organized way other than these sort of erratic quick decisions to support a very fast growing company that now had hundreds of skews, that now had sort of a good amount of staff. And he just really helped us focus and he had the information and the education behind him to help us with how to do it.
Pru:
And a real, by the sounds of things, product based specialist.
Chloe:
Yes.
Pru:
Which is so, it's such a ... As being a mentor myself, it's such a different game, that product.
Chloe:
It is a different game. When you're ordering tens of thousands of the units that are coming every two months on big containers, you get things wrong. It has a massive, massive fallout effect. And I think what I was feeling at that point is the size of the company was so overwhelming because the risk was so much higher. And I remember every time we'd hire a new staff I wouldn't be able to sleep that night because I felt that responsibility of making sure that like everything was running smoothly so that we could keep them in a job and like all these things, because we just had no idea. We really, really had no idea what we were doing. Like really had no idea.
Pru:
So just getting that help onboard to kind of, I guess streamline things and just map it all out and find better ways of doing it.
Chloe:
Yeah. And its funny because you can only ... Like I really prided myself on the fact that we didn't have business plans and we didn't forecast and we didn't strategize. It was very fluid. I really loved that about our business. And I will say without question, it is one of the reasons for our success because we were not actually looking at all the possible downfalls of the decisions we were making. But at the same time it gets to a certain point where you can't do that anymore without being reckless. And so that was that point.
Pru:
I love that. I talk about that quite a lot actually. That balance between kind of creativity and understanding the back end of a business and I think businesses, they should start from that place of creativity because that's where the uniqueness comes from and that's where the essence of a business comes from is just like coming purely out of your heart, mind and soul kind of thing. Like spilling that onto the table and creating from that place. And really just, not really, I know it sounds really cheesy as well, but not really worrying about the how, kind of looking at the vision, doing the why, creating what you want to create. But then exactly as you say that gets to a point where it's kind of like, if you don't have those business foundations underneath, then the whole thing is a little bit shaky
Chloe:
Completely. It's actually, I've just thought of this metaphor. It has been the greatest adventure. It's almost like, I said just before about like going into it in a child eyes and I don't know why this is all coming to me now, but it was like when we started the business we were infants. We just [inaudible 00:43:18], it was very much like that. And we grew up, we grew up and we were still, we definitely went through our reckless teens. We did all that and now we are grown up. We have our children, we are settling down. I'm so grateful for that adventure because it completely shaped our company. But now we're grown ups now and it feels nice to be grown up having had that sort of our playful childhood, our reckless teens and now we're adults.
Pru:
I love that analogy. That's perfect. It's perfect. And yeah, so many beautiful things happen along the way of that journey that if you tried to control them and forecast them, then it will suffocate them.
Chloe:
It does and I think it loses the magic.
Pru:
Yeah, I totally agree. Now, one thing that you have held onto really tightly in Olli Ella is you're still on the socials. You still have your Instagram account and you're super active on there. Again, sometimes I'm just like looking at that feed thinking she's got the business, she's got the kids, she's got the dogs, she's doing like she's going to the beach and she's like, I can't even get myself the total list.
Chloe:
I love doing the socials.
Pru:
Why has that been important to you to hold onto that piece? Because a lot of businesses of your size would, I mean they'd have someone in house to do it.
Chloe:
So disclaimer, we do now have a marketing team and socials is one element of it. However, Instagram is mine and Instagram is mine because it is my way of directly communicating with our customers. It's my way of directly receiving feedback and also praise and negative feedback from customers. And I love it. Like I'm not, I would say I'm not that active on social media outside of my account. And I think that was sort of ... That was a little bit of a challenge because there was a point maybe a few years ago where I was just like, I don't want to be on social media, like I'm not. But I think to me it's been a really beautiful way of having that direct contact with customers and look, it would feel inauthentic to have someone else creating our voice. I can't explain it, but yeah, I don't see that changing.
Pru:
I love that. I love that. And recently across your socials was of course your fabulous trip to the US and I guess I kind of like, it looked like you and Olivia were there, you were having a really wonderful time because she's based in California, isn't she?
Chloe:
Yeah.
Pru:
And so, how important ... I mean, is work and life completely blended between the two of you or do you make time out to kind of just be your family selves and not talk about work? Or is it just, it's all in.
Chloe:
We try, it's really hard.
Pru:
You can't, too excited-
Chloe:
It's really hard because we really love it. So it's like we'll be conscious of if we're with our other siblings not doing it, because I think it can be really annoying for them. But no, look, we were together ... So I go to the US like usually once or twice a year with the family. And the way we usually do is we usually do like a two week work focused and then we'll go off on an adventure for two to four weeks with the family. And it's beautiful. It's a lot of fun and I hope we can continue doing it even after the kids. Unfortunately, the school holidays don't work out quite as well with Australia and the USA, but I really hope we can continue this as the kids grow up.
Pru:
Yeah, amazing. Now your kids, how old are each of your kids, just for all the listeners at home?
Chloe:
They're 10, almost eight, almost four and 10 months old.
Pru:
Wow. And so what does the next little phase for you look like?
Chloe:
In terms of?
Pru:
In terms of family and business, do you just, it sounds like you're in quite a good place with that balance. So does it just kind of carry on as business as usual?
Chloe:
I would love another child, but I've been fully cut off. Charlie won't even go near me nowadays, like he yells at me, no more children. Look, in terms of business, I think steadying the ship. We've just had another massive year with a Dinkum dolls, that was a very big launch for us. So I think this year is steadying our ship, really sort of going deeper into our product categories, really streamlining the visual element of our company, I think, because we have so many different products and we have quite a few different product categories. Making sure that, that's not confusing and making sure that the sort of unifying themes are immediately apparent to our customers, to our friends. You know? I think, just this is the steadying the ship year, I think.
Pru:
I like how that sounds. And particularly, I guess from the first few years being so reactive in the best kind of way and now being, I guess more proactive around the back end, kind of things.
Chloe:
Well yeah, but also like the things from sustainability, making sure that we're going deeper into that category. Like our goal is to be B Corp certified by the end of this year, and we're, I would say we're 80% there.
Pru:
Amazing.
Chloe:
Making sure that we're really focusing on that sort of customer experience, making sure that we've really outlined what our company values are, making sure that we are as a company sticking to those. It's just, yeah.
Pru:
It's a bit of tidying up as well.
Chloe:
Tidying up, that's it.
Pru:
When you've had a really fast-
Chloe:
A big party.
Pru:
A very big party for a very long time, those reckless teens, you're coming out from those.
Chloe:
Yeah, that is right, that is what we are doing right now. Because you right, you can go so long from just being sort of treading water, treading water, like just trying to catch things that are being thrown at you. And now we actually, we have the infrastructure in place, the staff in place, the product range and now we can really just clean it all up.
Pru:
Yeah, perfect. Awesome. All right, well I think that almost wraps up everything I wanted to talk about. But I did want to ask you some of our rapid fire questions that we ask all of our guests here on One Wild Ride. So here we go, tea or coffee?
Chloe:
Coffee.
Pru:
Always. Fate or free will?
Chloe:
Free will.
Pru:
Love it. What daily habits do you have in place?
Chloe:
All right, this is a terrible one. Chocolate digestive biscuits, English breakfast tea, the biscuits dunked into the tea and eaten in front of Netflix once the kids go to bed.
Pru:
Oh, I love that. I love it. I do a similar thing in the mornings, but I'm on the scotch fingers and English breakfast tea. It's so delicious. What are you most proud of today?
Chloe:
My beautiful family, I'm really so proud of them.
Pru:
They are very beautiful, your family. All right, if you could jump on a plane tomorrow and go anywhere in the world with anyone, where would you go and who would you go with?
Chloe:
Costa Rica with my family, with the kids.
Pru:
Oh fantastic. Who else would you like to see me interview on the podcast?
Chloe:
Definitely Tory Bauer.
Pru:
Tory Bauer's name has been mentioned around these parts quite a few times. I'm going to have to reach out to her. Perfect. And then finally, how can people connect with you?
Chloe:
Find me on the gram.
Pru:
Easy, just like that. Awesome. Chloe, thank you so much for joining me today.
Chloe:
Thank you so much Pru, it's been awesome.
Pru:
Thank you.